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You are listening to Insights at the Edge.Today, my guest is Zainab Salbi. Zainab is an Iraqi-American humanitarian, entrepreneur, author, and media commentator who has dedicated herself to women’s rights and freedom. At the age of 23, she founded Women For Women International, a grassroots humanitarian and development organization dedicated to serving women survivors of war. With Sounds True, Zainab has written a new book called Freedom Is An Inside Job: Owning Our Darkness And Our Life To Heal Ourselves In The World.
In this episode of Insights At The Edge, Zainab and I spoke about what it means to be a social change agent from “the strength of our spines instead of the breathlessness of our chests.” We talked about how to skillfully hold on to our values while engaging people whose values seem to oppose ours, and Zainab spoke to this issue as a Muslim immigrant speaking to people who desperately fear Muslims entering the country.
We talked about how our dreams never require us to self-sacrifice, the power of making amends, and why we need to leave behind what no longer works in our lives in order to find and wield our own sword of truth. Here’s my conversation with the tremendously empowered and empowering Zainab Salbi.
Welcome, everyone. It is my great delight to be here in the Sounds True studio with Zainab Salbi, talking about her new book from Sounds True, a beautiful new book, Freedom Is An Inside Job. Zainab, your book is gorgeously written and super inspiring to me.
Zainab Salbi: Thank you. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
TS: I want to go directly to an image that you introduce about halfway through the book which is the idea that each one of us has the power and the birthright to pull out of a rock—symbolic metaphorical rock—our sword of truth like the King Arthur legend. That we can do it. We can pull out this sword of truth. It’s our sword of truth to carry in our lives. And maybe because it’s here, at Sounds True, I wanted to start with this note and to ask you what’s required in your view and in your experience to be able to pull forth our sword of truth.
ZS: Oh, I’m so glad. You actually liked it. That’s my favorite image because we are in a time in which everyone is talking about righteous values, righteous anger, righteous self, Like this is “I stand for this. This is what it is.” This is all true. I stand for liberal values or conservative values, or this values or this values. This is the truth. The full truth for me is a 360 degrees.
In order to really… The way I see the sword of truth is holy, just like only King Arthur could pull his sword. Only full truth can allow us to pull our sword of truth. Which means for me, my full truth is not only I am good in this way, in this way, in this way. But I’m scared. I’m insecure. I have betrayed myself. Perhaps, I betrayed others, that I have heard. That it is not … That is my full truth.
I think of a bully teenager for example. He’s like a bully, and everyone is afraid of him. He’s bullying this and taking advantage of this and all of that. But for that boy, to pull the full sword of truth, he needs to say also, “I’m scared. I may be unlovable. I may be ugly. My mother hurt me.” Whatever it is, right? When we do that, the reason I say we need to do that because then we are not confronting the other. “I’m good and you are bad.” Is actually we are talking about, “Here is the good part of me. Here is the bad part of me. Here’s the ugly part of me. Here is the consistent. Here’s the inconsistent. Here’s a time I’ve been complicit, and I have been complacent in leading to this environment.” Because it happens to all of us, all of us.
When we do that, when we act and speak out of that full truth of who we are, you can only own your truth. No matter what legitimate cause you have, you can only own your truth and your own self. Then, the speaking is coming from a different perspective. Now, we are speaking out of full integrity, out of full awareness of my good, my bad, and the ugly. That, in my opinion, allows the other to also… or encourage them or inspire them, or maybe not, because we cannot be attached to the other. But maybe yes, to also inspire them to say here’s the good, here’s the bad, here’s the ugly in me. Then, we calm down. That’s when we can talk to each other.
TS: Now, now part of the subtitle of Freedom Is an Inside Job is that we own our darkness and our light. This is what you’re talking about. You’re talking about how we need to do this investigation of how we may have betrayed ourselves, as well as other people having betrayed us. Talk a little bit about your own discovery work, and seeing where you found areas of self-betrayal.
ZS: Well, in so many ways. For the longest time, I’m in my late 40s. Up until honestly few years ago, I’ve known myself as the activist, as the feminist, as the humanitarian. I really didn’t look at my shadows. It’s not that I didn’t do bad things. I just dumped it under the rug and ignored it and move forward. I would give. I mean like I would give speeches, for example. Let’s take a concept of forgiveness, let’s say.
I love Nelson Mandela. I loved his appeal for people to forgive each other. I love the truth and reconciliation process in South Africa. I thought it’s such a superior notion that we should all aspire to. I would give my speeches and talk about that and all of the… I worked in Rwanda about their own truth and reconciliation after genocide that practically killed a million people, who are in the street, like, dead bodies in the street. Then, I’m like a believer in this beautiful value, forgiveness. I’m a progressive person. It also comes with a righteousness in here.
Well, a lover hurt me. I was in a relationship. I loved him dearly. He betrayed me by cheating on me with another woman, but not telling me that. The cheat is one thing but not telling me and lying and making me—
TS: It’s a real betrayal.
ZS: —and making me feel I’m the bad person, and there’s something wrong with me and all of that until I have to stand up for myself, and tell him to stop and get out. Then, I’m like, it was the question. Well, OK now, I advocate for the political forgiveness between Hutu and Tutsis in Rwanda, you know, blacks and whites in South Africa. I can’t forgive this guy. Actually to be extremely honest, I wanted to … I fantasized sure about sending him a group of men who would beat the heck out of him and spray on his forehead something really bad that I would stay for two, three weeks so he can remember who he is and what he did. I mean that’s the fantasy.
I have a friend, a Jewish friend who said it’s OK to fantasize in Judaism as long as you don’t implement. I was like, “OK. Thank God,” because I’m also like, “Please, God, forgive me for even thinking these bad thoughts.” I couldn’t forgive him. What’s the point of this value? What’s the point of my self-righteous value if I couldn’t forgive this person in front of me? I had to then understand the meaning of forgiveness within myself. To understand it within myself, I needed to see the part of me that—where have I betrayed myself ? Because I couldn’t see it before. It took me into a journey inward. I went through that journey because I work on my dreams. I work with a psychoanalyst, who was a Jungian analyst rather, and would like different … I use different tools, different shamanic traditions to try to help me go inward.
But I’m a seeker. What I realize, that’s like so, what put me into this relationship with this man who would do this to me? It’s very insecure part of me, very insecure girl that really wants to be loved. That whatever you see of her exterior accomplishments is one thing. Inside, she wants to be loved. She wants to be held by a man. She wants to be loved and accepted. I kept on compromising myself and allowing my shutting down my instinct, the voice that pop out says, “This is wrong.” I would just look at its stop because I wanted to be loved by this person. I betrayed myself. I betrayed my voice, my instinct by allowing things that are wrong. I allowed it to happen to me. I allowed wrong behavior, lies, to happen. I know they are lies. I would look at the other directions. I know he’s cheating, and I look in the other directions. That’s my self-betrayal.
But when I saw her, when I saw who was the part of me that is betraying me, she’s a very insecure child. I felt bad for her. First, I felt angry at her and a sense of shame, but then I felt really sad for her. Really, when I understood her security, I could forgive her because I was like, “Poor thing.” Then, I immediately was able to migrate that forgiveness to him. It must be insecure part of him that caused that betrayal. Full people do not betray. Only insecure people betray. If you’re full in yourself and have a good sense of self, you don’t need to betray. It’s only our insecurity that betrays us.
I can apply it to him. Now, when I talk to forgiveness between the different political parties, whoever it is, it’s coming out of an understanding of how hard it is, an authentic and a genuine understanding of the journey inside myself, and an ability to apply it to the hardest part—which is the one in front of you—to then apply it to the larger part. This is what I learned. I went from the political to the very personal, to my inside myself in order to move it out again. But the moving out is coming out of my truth, acknowledging that there is a very insecure part of me that just wants to be loved and accepted.
TS: Now, let me ask you a question about that inner process. I think that a lot of people can identify, yes, there’s this part of me that’s very young and terrified and maybe abandoned. I don’t feel this fullness in all of me. But there’s not a separation like, “Oh, that’s just a part of me.” They feel identified with this aspect of themselves that’s not strong and whole and adult. How did you have that separation so that you could see, “Oh, this is a young part of me that I can love and take care of?”
ZS: Good question. Well, before, I didn’t see it. It was, I saw me as one person. I couldn’t see that there are different parts of me. When I saw me, I spoke with actually extreme confidence by the way about this value system. I don’t know how did I want. Let me think about how… I mean there are small things, honestly, that led me to it.
They’re sometimes very silly things. I was in Mexico giving a speech. A young woman gave me a Mexican doll to honor me to remember Mexico. I’m like thinking, oh, I hate it when people give me gifts when I’m traveling because I usually take carry-on bag and I have to carry it. I don’t know what do with it. Then, I go to the hotel. I’m just like I look at this doll. I hug it. I mean this is such a like silly example, right? I hug it a night. I noticed what got through good in me is a very young person, a girl inside me that hugged her dolls when I was a child. It’s such a silly thing. It’s such a personal journey to see like I’m ashamed even that there is this girl in me who wants to hug the doll at night. But Tami, I hugged that doll like night for a year. I mean I can cry thinking about it. Here I am the activist feminist, and I’m hugging a doll at bed in night because I was lonely and scared and afraid. That’s when you could get access to that. You could figure it out, but I can’t tell you an exercise to do it. It’s sort of try this, but don’t deny it. Don’t dump it under the rug. If it’s coming, talk to it. “Where is it? Who are you?” I have a friend who puts a pillow in front of her as I’m talking with her like, “OK what do you want?” But it’s inside of us .
The more I see it, the more it integrates in me. Before when I didn’t see it, I think of myself as riding a carriage with one horse. It’s a white horse. It’s beautiful horse. I’m riding my carriage on that. There’s another dark horse next to the white horse. I’m just not seeing the dark horse. I don’t have my rein on the dark horse. The dark horse keeps on [whinnies] like, take me to the side. I’m like shocked, why is this happening? I get ashamed and afraid. I go back to no, no, no I’m such a good person. I’m a good person. Then, my dark horse comes and takes me constantly. Take detour. Finally, I realize I need to see that dark horse. I need to see it. In this case, it’s the insecure girl, for example. I need to see it. I need to acknowledge it. I need to actually respect it. And I need to put the rein on it. It’s not going to disappear, but at least I have the rein over it.
Now, if you tell me, “Zainab, there’s an insecure part in you that is doing this and this.” Before, I would deny. I would get angry. I would say no. Now, it’s like, “I know. I know. I’ve seen it. I have it. I know. Don’t worry.” No, not don’t worry. “I know, Tami. I’ve seen it too. I’m trying to control it. I’m trying to deal with it.” Do you see what I mean? That’s an acknowledgment. It’s a process. We need it because we need to take the rein over both horses in our lives to quote Wilma Mankiller, actually, who talked about the horses.
We need it because other people see it anyway. They use it against us when we don’t see it. That’s when we get scared, because they’re using something else real against us. When you take the rein, you say, “Uh-huh. Yes, I have it. I know.” It lets me engage with another dialogue at a different level where you’re not hijacking me, where you are actually engaging with me with both my horses intact. Does that make sense?
TS: It makes a lot of sense. It’s very helpful. Now, do you think that if somebody finds themselves feeling very self-righteous about something, maybe they’re feeling self-righteous about a person, like this man in your life who did X, Y, Z . So maybe they’re feeling self-righteous about some event and person in their life; my boss, my ex, whatever, or maybe they’re feeling self-righteous about something that’s happening in the world. They’re incredibly upset, enraged and they are on their podium talking about it. Do you think that’s an indication, self-righteousness, that there’s something to be investigated? Or do you think there’s a place for self-righteousness?
ZS: It’s a very good question, also. Self-righteous is a belief in values … Right? I mean that’s how I see self-righteous. It is a belief in a value system that is extremely important for me. I don’t question this value system. I’m saying it is intact. My belief in forgiveness is a true and genuine belief in forgiveness. I didn’t know it was not genuine until I had to apply it in a very personal level.
I didn’t know how to investigate the non-genuinity of it until, frankly, I was witnessing a grass court in Rwanda… So Rwanda has a genocide. A million people get killed. Half a million woman gets raped in a hundred days only. Literally, you’re talking about a country where bodies are in the streets. In a hundred days, this happens, and so many criminals, they don’t have enough lawyers or courts or prisons to process all of them. They put them all in prison, but to process them, it would have taken, I don’t know, hundred years because they don’t have the system to keep the process going. They came up. They said, “We are going to go back into a very old tradition of ours.” Which is the community—each community chooses its wise people, women and men. Then, they process the criminals who have killed, raped, burned, pillaged. But not the ones who have ordered. The ones who have ordered these crimes, the government is going to process them or the International Court is going to process them.
Very interesting. It’s like here you are… The process goes that you have to stand up if you’re a criminal. You stand up. And this is something I’m witnessing. You say, “I have killed this person.” This is your standing up in front of your entire community who is now gathering in the village to hear you. In front of the victim’s families, you say, “I killed this person. I burnt this person’s farm. I raped this woman. I did this and this and this.” You have to acknowledge what you have done. Then, the elders or the wise people—it’s not elders actually, it’s wise people—go have a session for whatever half an hour an hour. Then, they come back and they give their verdict. I’m listening to many processing. Then, they come. This one guy who stands up and says all of these things and they come back. They said, “We don’t feel your remorse.” It’s a feeling. Remorse, there’s no evidence in remorse. There’s no data. There’s no fact sheets in remorse.
He’s saying what he has done, but they do not feel his remorse. They said you have to go back to prison. We need you to process what you have done a bit more. Once we feel the authenticity of your apology—because it seems like you’re just saying it on autopilot right now—once you feel the authenticity of your apology, then we can process it, and the processing in what they’ve done is if you burnt the village, you have to find … If you’ve burnt the farm, you have to farm that farm. If you killed a woman’s son, you have to do for her what a son would do for his mother. Provide for her, take care for all of that, et cetera. other?
The authenticity, so now going back to the self-righteousness. The value is true, but are we authenticate in where we have implemented it and not implemented it? Are we authentic in addressing the grievance of the other? There’s always an accurate point from the other side. It’s always is they point out something accurate. Are we addressing that? Are we saying, “Look, this is a value. This is an important value.” This is where the troubling in this value ,where I’m not consistent in this value… This is what I’m talking about it. That’s what I’m struggling about. I still believe in the value. It’s still important. Do you see what I mean?
TS: Yes, I do.
ZS: It’s a different process than what I used to do which is just preach the value, not talk about the journey of how one lives that value.
TS: Let’s take an example, concrete example where now you would address the grievance from the other side in having a conversation about some area of difference. We disagree on this issue. I’m not just going to come at you with my self-righteous thing. I’m going to also address your grievance.
ZS: Let me pick on a very controversial issue right now; immigration. We’re all horrified at what’s happening, the mass deportation, separation of parents and children, all of that. We are divided on this issue between those who are, like, “We have to protect,” and those who don’t. I am an immigrant myself. I came to this country, literally this month 28 years ago. I went through different legal status in it. I came as a tourist. I was going to get married. I got divorced very fast because it was an abusive marriage. I was in a limbo for a couple of months legally like who I am, all of that. I went to, at that time, the Immigration Services called INS. I told them, “This is my situation. You tell me what to do.”
I went through different things. I went to work permit.. Then, I fell in love and married and got my citizenship. But as an immigrant, by the way, all immigrants know the different processes and the different tricks and all of that. I’m genuinely sympathetic on the immigrant side. I really appreciate this country, in terms of the freedom and the appreciation it gives for the immigrants.
Yet, when I hear the other side, as horrified as I am by what President Trump is saying, some of the things he says they’re not … I can’t throw, I’m telling you my truth. I can’t throw all the things he’s saying as just bad. There are things he’s saying that I know as an immigrant, there are points in it. For example, how do you process illegal immigrants who are really coming illegally, and what is the role of due process when the entry is illegally? Is an illegal entry. They’re coming with conscience because I come from a committee of immigrants. When you talk to immigrants, they also talk about why do they want to come to America, why they want to go to Germany. No, I don’t want to go to Poland, because they also know the services and the systems you get in each country. I mean I’m being very honest here.
I know some people want to go to Sweden rather than America. Because Sweden, there’s a great welfare system where you don’t have to work. They give you money and apartment and TV where you don’t have enough. Some people do take advantage. There are people who are hardworking and will really genuinely want to build a life for themselves, and really need an opportunity. I’m one of them. The truth about immigrant is across the spectrum. What he’s saying now, horrible, that separation, that deportation is horrible, horrible, horrible. By the way, some of that what he’s implementing was said by Obama, but some of what he’s saying is, “OK, as a country, how do you manage your process?” In a real way, that’s saying, “OK, how do we manage immigration into the country. Those who are entering legally from those who are entering illegally, how do we manage a process where we are not taken advantage of?” Do you see what I mean?
TS: Yes, I do.
ZS: It’s controversial to say that because I hear him. I hear what he’s saying. I’m coming as, really, I’m being extremely honest in here, as an immigrant myself, who appreciates the immigration law in this country saying some of what he’s saying is actually correct. We do need to address these issues. Otherwise, it can’t continue to be free flow. Am I answering your question? I’m answering your question by saying, I believe in this value. I believe in the immigration value of this country. I really appreciate that value and the acceptance and the freedom and welcome it gives to diversity of immigrants from all over the world.
I’m also telling you there are immigrants who are really hardworking and truly want to make a living for themselves, and they cannot go back home for a variety of reasons.
It’s also true there are immigrants who take advantage of the system. They cheat. They lie. All of it is true. Can we engage, Mr. President, on that level of truth?
TS: I’m going to hold up your book again. The reason I’m going to hold up this book again is that some of the stories in Freedom Is An Inside Job that moved me the most were how you did such a deep self-examination of yourself in situations where you disagreed with other people’s viewpoints, but you then did an analysis, a deconstruction of how you were in those conversations, and how you could be in conversations moving forward, such that there was a quality of kinship or warmth, these are my words, that could be maintained.
I mean, you told a very powerful story of some dear friends of yours that you became alienated from because you weren’t able to take their position in the conversation. Then, moving forward, after you did that reflection, how you were able to take the position of the other in conversations.
ZS: I mean, it’s heartbreaking because in my self-righteous values, these values. When I hear others who are against these values, up until recently, my quick reaction is shock and attack really. How dare you believe in these values? And what a horrible person you are. And this is—
TS: Not a great way to make friends.
ZS: I mean, no. To have friends who are like-minded people is one thing. This is a friend who I just adore, who married a woman that I was shocked by her values. Shocked. From her belief that all homosexual people are going to go to hell because it’s a sinful act. To her belief that we are the superior being in this world. I really, really, really genuinely believe we are equal beings with animals.
I believe and respect animals’ intelligence deeply, and Earth intelligence deeply. The superior earth, you think I don’t believe, I think it’s destructive to her. Not allowing any talk about any religion because Jesus or Mohammed or whatever, Moses is like, “They’re all holy and we do not question them.” This is shocking. I behaved in a way of disgusts. That’s my true feeling, disgust. I showed it in a dinner conversation. I showed my disgust and of being appalled by her values and just attacked her. As a result, and the disgust was genuine, I have to tell you. It’s like as appalled by this, how could you have these values and my friend that I love him and adore him, how could he marry and love someone who has such values.
The relationship was cuts like an axe. I can’t tell you how much I love. I love him so dearly, this friend. It scared the heck out of me, honestly. It scared the heck out of me. I couldn’t see my image, until recently I was in another discussion with another person. I saw his disgust at my values. I’m like, “Ah.” I saw how it scared me to see someone who was showing disgust and fear and judgment at my values. It was very scary feeling. I was like, “Oh my god.” If this is how I came across to this other, no wonder they shut down. No wonder they built a brick wall to isolate me from any conversations with them unless if it’s about babies. No wonder, because that’s scary. I saw it from both sides, basically. We lose love. The loss at the end of the day truly is mine, maybe theirs as well. Both of us lost love. What do we want at the end of the day if we strip it of all the stature and the money and the success? What do we really, really, really really, really want? Ultimately, all of us is we want love. We want to be loved and accepted by others and by ourselves.
If you strip it all, that’s what is about. I lost love on so many directions because I’m appalled. I’m so self-righteous about my values. It’s a loss for me. That hit me. It shocked me. Then, I had to process where I might like how could I change that situation. How could I change that situation? This is when I went into my own shadow, and realized the arrogance in my self-righteousness, and how it felt good to be arrogant and how just like, “Oh my god, I am arrogant.” As I advocate for these values, they said arrogance is not compassionate actually. Would be others who don’t agree with it, I believe this is it. It feels great when I tapped into my darkness and not … I love… When I say tapped into my darkness, I mean allowing this space. There is an exercise in the book. You allow a space where you feel it. It doesn’t mean you throw it outside to anybody. It means you create a safe environment for yourself whether alone or in community where you can actually bring that darkness out, see it, acknowledge to see how it feels even. Let yourself feel it.
Then, ask the question, “How can I change it?” Do you see what I mean? I created an exercise for myself. I put music. I put candles. I put some sage. I like go into what I call music journey. You go and you go, until you allow yourself the feeling of anything he wants. When I felt it, it felt great to allow it, like “Wow.” I was like, so how can I ever change it? Like if that’s how it feels to be arrogant, why would someone on the other side, let’s say President Trump because we’re all projecting everything on him. It’s the easiest target. What is the incentive to change that arrogance? Why would you do that? Then, I just like, well, actually you have to change it because you have to bring… There’s no incentive. The only way to fight it is to willingly bring my own darkness into space in here in this room sitting next to me and telling you, “Tami, I have arrogance in me.”
TS: But let me ask you a question. Imagining someone who’s listening who says, “Look, it’s not arrogant to have a strong righteous feeling that homosexuality is not a sin and that holding ourselves above animals is a form of human-centered elitism that allows us to slaughter. That’s not arrogance. That’s being bright, Zainab. You were just right.”
ZS: It is being bright. But it is arrogance towards the other person because I am not acknowledging their lever points. What is important for them. What it turned me is like what if I acknowledge that I have this in me? I can scare people because I’m so a believer in my values, so I can scare them. That’s scaring that’s shut them down. Let me try it another way to engage now. I believe in these. I’m not backing off from these values.
TS: I understand.
ZS: I will fight for the rest of my life for these values. So, how do I engage differently? I was put in another situation with another environment this time, and another person.
TS: There’ll be endless opportunities.
ZS: Especially these days. In this case was a very conservative woman who fear Muslims, very easy stereotype. Muslims are going to come and change our culture. They’re going to impose Sharia on us. They’re going to oppress our women. They don’t only oppress their women. They’re going to press all women, basically. Muslim are the end of our Western civilization if we bring them and allow them in this country.
Now, I’m a Muslim. If you told me this, if I hear anybody say this I go into my attack, how ignorant you are. You are like this bigot. They are great terminologies that we can just share with them. In this case, because I just lost a dear friend, I decided let me acknowledge that pain. Let me acknowledge the fear. You’re afraid of Muslims. Yes, I’m afraid. You’re afraid because they may destroy a value system that allowed that you believe in; freedom, constitution, Sharia, oppression of women, all of these things. You’re afraid that this is what they are going to do. I acknowledge the fear and when I acknowledge the fear, in the case, I mean this is a woman across the dinner table, almost same setting because it’s at our dinner tables that this is happened. And our meeting tables that this is happening. I actually did not go into my defensive calling her racist bigot. I went into … because I decided when we label people, that’s a first shut down. It’s like a mental wall.
TS: Very good point. Very good point.
ZS: I decided not to use any labels anymore. Not even intersectionality, nothing. Don’t throw the labels outside. Second, I decided to acknowledge first the other person’s fear. “You are afraid of this. You’re afraid of they’re going to do this” and, yes, I’m afraid. That first time. It’s like the walls. It’s the first time the walls gets lowered down. Then, I saw saying, “You know I’m a Muslim.” I have some of these same fears actually, not of Sharia and all of that. I’m also afraid of the fundamentalists. It’s of my own religion. If they see me like that, they also will hate me. They also want to kill me. I’m actually on the front line in that attack.
Let me acknowledge I’m also afraid of the same group of people; fundamentals, extremist. ISIS, one day came to Iraq. I cried. I can still cry for entire three years every single day, as I read news of what they have done. This is my country, my religion, my people who have done that. They scared the heck out of me. I’m too, I’m scared. Then, but I am a Muslim as well. Can I tell you, we really have immigrants in this country, could there be some terrorists here? Yes, there could be. Is the vast majority people who really just want to live a decent life? very, very, very accurate. Are we all escaping from horrors that we are seeking freedom here? So true. Do you really want to impose Sharia? Let me tell you we actually don’t even know what Sharia is, like, we didn’t grow up with the meaning of Sharia.
Sharia is not a law. It’s not a book. It’s a course of interpretation. We’re coming here to escape from anybody who wants to do it. Let alone want to impose it here. Believe me. Other women forced to our hijab asking telling honestly because I said going and asking. They’re like most of the women here in this country are wearing hijab are wearing it out of a point to say, “I’m American and I’m free and I am a woman’s rights activist,” like this is part of my freedom in America. They’re making a political point so let them. Rarely are they forced, some are, but a lot are not. You start engaging in a dialogue at a first acknowledging that I, too, am afraid of some Muslim fundamentalists, very. And that fear does not represent the majority of the people and that you are actually not seeing me, what do you think that I’m scary just for being a Muslim.
Anyway, I engage with this woman who’s a very conservative in a way that she actually at the end of the conversation said, “Thank you so much. I can hear you. I can listen to you. You acknowledge you’re my fear. I understand what I’m exaggerating in it. I really will hear you more in the future.” That for me was like … I told you I recently had a fight with my friend who’s like we’re talking about Israel/Palestine in this case. What I’m learning in all of these differences. When we humiliate the other, we humiliate them when we tell them you are this and this and this. You are racist, bigot, da-da-da, prejudice. You are a… We humiliate them and that reaction comes out as defensive and that like we cannot talk to each other.
When the first point is to acknowledge the other, I see you. Different indigenous traditions, they say but I see you. The I see you is not, “I see you, I love you.” It’s, “I see who you are. I see your fears.” Let’s acknowledge that. I’m taking a leap of faith in her. She’s taking a leap of faith in me too, for both of us lower our walls of fear. We can see each other.
That’s when the dialogue happened. It’s an exercise. It’s just a change of strategy and an awareness that I could be very scary in my arrogance as I defend my values, and an awareness that these values are very important, but I’m going to go about them in a different route to communicate them differently. I create a lowering of the walls rather than a building of walls.
TS: Very powerful, very helpful. I think such an important teaching for our time for all of us who find ourselves in so many conversations where we have differing views and before we know it, as you said, we’ve got our guns out.
ZS: All sides are having their guns out. I have my guns as well. We have to be aware. It’s like, “Are we part of this crisis?” so this sword of truth in this case. When I attacked my friend and his wife is, “I am part of the crisis of division.” That is my sword of truth that I’m not only believer in these values which I really honor and I truly believe. They’re so important and not only for me. I believe for humanity but by attacking them and demonizing them and humiliating them, I am part of the problem.
TS: You’re listening to Insights At The Edge produced by Sounds True. We welcome you to learn more about our collection of more than a thousand learning programs and receive three free gifts just for visiting us. Go to SoundsTrue.com/free. That’s SoundsTrue.com/free. Now, back to Insights At The Edge.
I’m going to read a quote from Freedom Is An Inside Job because it gets to my favorite sentence in the whole book. Here’s the quote. “Once our own dark and light are more integrated, our voices of protest change from harsh barks that speak to some but alienate others, to a resonant call that many, many people can hear. We work from the strength of our spines rather than the breathlessness of our chests.” That was my favorite.
ZS: I’m so happy.
TS: I love that sentence.
ZS: I always say that’s the summary of what I’m calling for. How do we become activists in this new era? By not just shouting about these values, but being aware and being anchored in ourselves and in our consistencies and struggle to implement these values. because it’s very hard to be 100% in your value systems. It’s very, very, very hard. It may not be very hard. Sometimes it’s not hard for you. It’s hard for you to be consistent in the environments that you are living in.
That work and awareness of who you are and the goodness and the struggle and in the badness, you still advocate for the exact same values. I still advocate from forgiveness. I really believe in it, but I advocate from also a point of recognizing how hard it was when I needed to forgive that boyfriend, and my fantasy, horrible fantasies of revenge, and then saying I still made the choice to go in and see the insecurity. It’s a choice. I am advocating right now, or my call for advocacy, is advocate out of an awareness that this is hard to do, out of an awareness that these values are hard to do but we still can do it. We still can choose to do it, but when you choose it and do it, your resonance is different. It’s more practical. It is more compassionate towards the other.
I tell the story of a brothel owner in India which, honestly, was a big awakening for me like, this brothel owner, I see in him darkness. He’s like evil in my opinion. He is so transparent about how he take the prostitute, the women. He buys them. He makes them sleep with up to 15 men a day. That’s for me, physical torture, even if you love the person you can’t sleep with them for 15 men a day really. I mean, it was like a torture to sleep with after that times. Every day and he charges them for their bed and for their food. They are actually in debt for him basically for five to ten years to pay off the debt that he bought them and all the food and all of these things. It’s horrible. It’s like slavery. Horrible.
I’m like shocked in interviewing him. I’m just shocked. He sees my face of disgust. At one point, he looks at me and he says, “You judge us.” You and now in me ,not only Zainab but me presenting an entire population outside of the red-light district especially feminist women’s rights activists, all of these things. He says, “You judge us. You judge us. You put us and the women in prison. You call them immoral and when you sit in your fancy dinner tables and a joke cracks on a prostitute, you laugh. You all laugh at it. You don’t recognize that it is you who is part of the problem, or not a problem, a part of our existence. It is your husbands, your fathers your, sons, your brothers who are the clientele which we are supplying to. It is you, the women,” and in this case, he’s talking about in Indian context, “Where you pay and treat your maids so badly and you kick them out without payment and you create their own vulnerability and who you think takes advantage of that vulnerability? I am. I am the one who take this woman who are kicked out and abused. I take them. Yes, I buy them, but I provide them a shelter. I provide them a job.”
Now, he’s justifying his dark action by using something I was not aware of, my culpability in it. And me not being aware of took me like, well, I was shocked like, “What?” And made me question, “Am I part of it? Are my brothers and father and cousins and friends? Were they? Did they ever use a prostitute? I went into like… My own unawareness of my own culpability in it gave him the advantage of putting me in a silent moment. Then, I went, and I asked all the men I know in my life in my surroundings. I would say…
TS: You ask them, have you ever been to a prostitute?
ZS: Yes. Did you ever use a prostitute? Now, I grew up overseas. I lived overseas. I live in America as well and like … My gathering is an international. Three-quarters used. Some used prostitutes for the first time, they were horrified and did not like it, they said never again. Some continue to use it. Some to clear sons as the first sexual experience to use a prostitute. Different. Some never. In truth, some never. But a lot did. Was I in dinner tables with these friends and a joke got cracked with a prostitute story in it, and I laughed? Yes, I did. Yes, I did. Without an awareness, honestly. I have to tell you. Was I aware the connection between me being a feminist and women’s rights? I’m laughing at that joke, in a social setting that we all want to be polite and accept it and connecting that actually we are all.
There’s some men in here that are using prostitute, but they are like self-righteous about, “Oh, we’re not,” but they really are in their secrets. I didn’t connect it. But my friends were [inaudible] and are drinking a nice glass of wine and all of these things. I don’t connect because they are not in the red light district. It’s like educated people. That’s the inconsistency. That’s our own hypocrisy that we are not aware. We’re not owning that. Then, more than that, this guy inspired me to say, have I ever actually abused a person in my life, a more vulnerable person in my life? And I have. I write about it in my book, a child maid that I grew up with in my home, and how I hurt her when I was a child. Now, a lot of people tell me, “Take it easy on yourself. You were a child.” I was like, “I don’t care.” I did something wrong. I treated a maid badly.
I have to own this. I don’t want to make excuse to myself, I was a child, I was unaware. I still have to own it. I went back to her. By miracle, I found her … I don’t want to spoil the story in here, but I apologized to her. In my acknowledgement, she tells me how resentful and angry she was at me for that abuse. So when you acknowledge your own role in the game we all play in this world, in co-creating this world, and acknowledge that actually, you, too, have done some things. That’s something, like, she wasn’t knocking on my door saying, “You hurt me when I was a child.” I was knocking on my door.
TS: Yes. Your conscience.
ZS: My conscience because I honestly believe when we do something we’re ashamed of, it doesn’t leave us. I really believe it keeps like a fly buzzing in our head and no one knows about it except us and maybe that person went way back. It doesn’t leave us. It stays. It stays. What I’m saying is go to it. Go to it. You don’t need to acknowledge it as I’m doing publicly. I’m not asking that of any person. That’s too much to ask sometimes, but you go for it for your sake. Go. Acknowledge. Address it. Be aware of it. If it needs an apology, go and do it because it’s humbling not only to be the one forgiving, but to be the one who is asking for forgiveness. There’s something in the humility of that. There’s a lot of lessons in that.
Then, you hear are the other person’s perspective and go into that and be aware of all of that. Next time I see that brothel owner, I tell him, “Yes, I know. Yes, sir. I know I am part of this issue. You still what you are doing is a crime. It does not legitimize or give excuses for your abuse of these women and enslavement of these women.” Like yes, but I am not telling you out of lack of awareness of my role in this. I am telling you with my awareness of my role in it. You may not use it against me or to justify you.
The relationship, like my own ownership of my dark places does not reduce my belief in my values. It actually, in my opinion, enhances my beliefs and makes it much more real and accessible rather than labeling it. We get attached to the labels, but these sometimes these labels don’t mean anything if you’re not familiar with it. What’s the feminist? What’s the racist? What is this? Be aware of it, and speak and, no, you may not. That’s what I mean by advocating from the core of your spine. “Yes, sir, I know some of my relatives have used prostitutes and some of my friends have used prostitutes. I, myself have abused a woman who was working as a maid. I have done my work and I’ve acknowledged. I went to her and I apologized and I did the process. I did my [inaudible]. I forgave myself. I still think what you’re doing is a crime.”
TS: What I’m flashing on is the image we started with. Having the sword of truth and the connection between that and this strength in our spines the way you’re describing it.
ZS: I’m saying advocate for these values. You’re advocating for because they are right values, but advocate it with the understanding of your role in its shadows, and of your struggle, and of the things that you don’t want to talk about. Talk about these things because, then, it legitimize your position even more. If we think about women’s movement and the Me Too Movement thing, for example, women have been abused. That’s a fact like, duh, for all of us women here. And not for decades, for centuries. Abused, marginalized, discriminated against, undervalued, horrible like it’s just a horrible story. Period. We have every single right to be angry at that. It’s centuries of oppression. Period.
We have learned the act of coexisting with that and, sometimes, we allow the abuse to happen because I have no choice. Sometimes, I’m going to allow it so I can get out of it. So I can get to a position where I don’t have to tolerate it. Sometimes, I flirt with it. Not the abuse. I flirt. Yes, I flirt with the abusive situation so I can try to turn it around for my own interests. Let’s acknowledge that. I’m saying we need to acknowledge that, not because it chips away from our anger at the injustice we face. It does not, but it does take away from the men who are saying, “This is a witch hunt. This is McCarthyism. This is you are being I’m afraid of women now. I’m not going to hire women now.” Because when you own the fact, yes, I did sometimes tolerate it. Sometimes, I saw it and looked at the other direction.
Sometimes, I fooled around with it, with my own sexuality. So I can actually accomplish what I… Let me tell you the circumstances that led me, that led all of us to this position where we had to coexist with it. We use whatever tools we have. Acknowledge that. It will not chip away from your grievance or demands for equality, but it will make it anchored and the foundation of our own shadow as well. Then, that takes away any man who delegitimized our grievance because he said, But women do flirt with me. How do I know?” “Yes, sir. I did flirt with you. Let me tell you that circumstance and still does not justify you doing X, Y and Z to hurt me.” Does that make sense?
TS: It’s good. It’s very helpful. It’s very clear.
ZS: Elevate the discussion. Elevate from just the righteous anger. Elevate it and acknowledge how you played with it so you can actually win.
TS: Zainab, there’s two more things I want to talk to you about. One is that you were the founder and then the director of Women For Women International for many years over two decades. You left that position. One of the things you write about in Freedom Is An Inside Job is that we can realize our dreams without having to sacrifice ourselves, and that you came to this realization that it was time for you to leave that role that there was too much sacrifice involved.
I’d love for you to talk to our audience about knowing when it’s time to leave, and how the sword of truth can ask us to leave things, even things we believe deeply in and have given our lives to.
ZS: I mean this is like what… Woman for Women was my baby. I created when I was 23 years old. I had no money, no work experience. I grew it from helping 33 women to nearly half a million women. It’s my baby, like I don’t have an actual child—that’s my child. The way I say it, if my soul was a wet towel, I squeeze it until not one drop was left.
I really gave it 99.9% of myself. As the world was celebrating me as the successful women’s rights activist and I actually built one of the largest women’s organization in America in terms of size. Women’s groups tend to be small, because the word “women” in a title of an organization by default means less money is going to go to that organization.
TS: May that not be true in the years ahead.
ZS: I hope so. Anything by the way, I mean this for the audience for the future, anything that has the word “women” and movie women, or whatever women except for Wonder Woman now is breaking. I hope we’re in a breaking moment. The word “women” in anything actually means less resources. It’s horrible.
Women for Women actually became one of the largest women’s organization in terms of size of money as a woman organization. Very proud. Very, very proud of it. Yet, I would go to bed crying every day. The taste that my mojo in life left me. It’s just like the world became flat for me. I would go from one place to another, one country to another. Eventually, I realized I am at this point, I am no longer in consistencies with the values that I am advocating for for other women. I’m advocating for women’s freedom. I was no longer free. Even though I am part of the advocacy for women’s freedom. I was in chains in a structure that I have created to advocate for women’s freedom.
If I wanted to advocate for a woman to be happy, I was not happy. I was like, the taste of life left because I was just working 99.9% of my life. I was advocating for women power, honestly. I was no longer in power of my schedule, I was managed by 20 people who I was afraid to have any personal life. Because they would like any relationship with like, “Oh, how can we raise money from that person?” or, “How we can this person help?”
I couldn’t have the freedom of being in friendships without asking anything. Thus, you don’t have friendships because you don’t want to ruin… You have a lot of relations but you don’t have authentic friendships, because you can’t protect the friendship itself. Because you really want something from that person. Do you see what I mean?
TS: I do.
ZS: What’s the point of me advocating for something when I am no longer that something? That’s when I realized, so that’s first… But I was justifying that sacrifice, for the longest time, because there are hundreds of thousands of women who are we are helping. I can’t abandon them. I can’t abandon them, it kept me going. I can’t let them go if I … It’s OK for me to sacrifice myself because there are women who are in war zones and who are victims have got through hell. Who am I to even think about these frivolous things?
But it reached to the point. This was my turning point, in which I am sitting in front of the women that I love. In this case, it was an Afghan woman. My love for them is what led me to start an organization is our love for the causes that we… It could be an animal rights. It’s your love for animals that leads you to do it, right? Then, eventually, you get consumed by the structures that you have to do this, this, this, this. This is what success mean. You wear a suit. You will stand in front of the table. You did it… The society tells you this is what success means. This is what accomplishments mean. This is what a revenue-generating means. All of these things, this is what it means. You play into it because you love the animal. You love the dog. I love the women. If someone loves the elephant, it doesn’t matter.
You accommodate all these structures and have them imposed on you as I had. Wear the suit. Sit at the top of the table. Do this. Do that, all of that. Eventually, even… The love doesn’t disappear, but I get one life. When a taste of life disappears, you’re betraying yourself. Thus, you’re betraying them. It was a moment in which I’m sitting and witnessing a woman in Afghanistan telling me her story both in this horrible way and this courageous way and this beautiful way. I’m listening to her story. I’m saying, “I am no longer engaged. I’m silent in my heart. I’m bored.” It was a wake-up call. I was like, “I no longer … I have not only betrayed myself in the name of success and in the name of my cause. I am now betraying her.” Do you see what I mean?
TS: I do.
ZS: It could, for me, that for someone else could be betraying your children. I hear of mothers who give everything to their children. One day, they are resentful of the child, because they have sacrificed themselves completely. Because there’s no more I in me for the child. For me, it’s for my cause, for someone else it’s for their financial spreadsheet. I mean all of us like it’s hard for me to talk about it for activists because I have a good cause. A lot of people say if I was a businesswoman and it may be easier that you would say, “Oh of course, your desire to make money would be judgment. You have some judgment.” But I’m telling you, don’t judge the attachments. The attachment’s here is to accomplish this and succeed in doing that. That’s my attachment. It’s a sense of myself vis-à-vis my outward accomplishments, but I end up sacrificing myself in it.
It was a wake-up call for me. Confronting that woman and confronting my feeling and that woman made me realize I need to leave like now, I’m betraying myself but I’ve betraying my cause if I continue to do that. When I left and start working on myself to try to bring back the joy of life in me and try to have a sense of I in me ,and try to breathe and do the things that I like and all of these things, I realized the cause does not require us to sacrifice ourselves. The child does not require the mother to sacrifice herself. My political cause or humanitarian cause does not require me to sacrifice myself. Actually, I need to be it. If I’m advocating for happiness, I need to first being happy. If I’m advocating for freedom, I need to experience that freedom. If I’m advocating for success, I need to feel that success is genuinely mine, not because the world defines it like that. Do you see what I mean?
TS: I do.
ZS: I believe actually in this moment in history a lot of us have played the game. Buy the house, buy the car, marry the guy or the woman, or get the child, get the dog, get that, that, that, that, that, that, all of that. We do it check, check, check, check, check, check. And we’re not happy.
That check check because we the society framed it for us. We implement it. It’s like, “How to be happy in seven steps. Do these things.” We did it. Then, I find more and more people in my life who accomplished all the steps. There is ,inside, an emptiness. Now, I’m in the what I’m advocating is reverse the process rather than living the frameworks, you define it for yourself. And have yourself be the anchor of it, and not lose yourself in that dynamic, in the dynamic of the social structure. You are defined.
So other friends look at you and they may not think of you as successful as they are. It’s OK, don’t be attached to that acceptance that is coming from our side. Be more true to yourself, because for me, that is the ultimate success. I came to conclude after leaving Women for Women and helping me come back to myself, I came to conclude that the taste of freedom is so delicious that it is worth the hard journey one has to walk to get to it. The taste of freedom is so so delicious, like chocolate, that it is worth the hard journey inward that you do have to go through. It is indeed hard, but it makes it worth it.
TS: Tell me what the taste of freedom tastes like? When you were describing the losing of your taste for life, I think people know that. I think most people probably know that, some moment in their life where they’re flat out and everything’s like some kind of ash or something, but I don’t know if everybody knows what the taste of freedom is like.
ZS: The simplest way I can express it is that if I die today, if I get hit by a truck today—and, honestly, I’m in an age where people are starting to die around me, sometimes by accidents and sometimes old age, but I also work in war and a lot of death around me. Often, between now and then, I get scared like if I’m going to die today.
The way I measure it if I die today, what are the last thoughts. Am I saying, “God,” it doesn’t matter if you believe or not, “I actually have lived life.” Or, “Zainab, I have given it all.” Or saying “Oh no, no, no, no, no. I’m not done. Please, please, please, give me a year, so I can learn how to ski, and I haven’t done this. I haven’t kissed my son or told him ‘I love you.’ I haven’t accomplished this charity that I wanted to do.” Do you go there? Do you go there because there’s all this list of things that you actually want to live and accomplish, but you’re waiting until retirement or until this and until this?
You’re not happy in your marriage, but you don’t want to address it because you’re waiting for, I don’t know what, or do you say, “I’m OK. I gave it all. I lived it all.” That’s the measurement for me. I think a lot of people as simple as being in relationships that they’re not happy with, or a job that they’re not being happy with. Or they have all this list of things that they want to do, but they can’t do because they have to pay this for this and this, whatever it is. Where do you go in the pivotal moment of life and death? I want to be able to. It’s a constant work, by the way, because you slip. Then, you come back and you slip and you go back. But aware of it.
There’s no such a thing as I’m always free and I’m always happy, but there is a moment that you taste it. This moment just like, “I can die today. I have lived.” I can tell you this, despite my slips and going back, I try really hard to live by my values and by my truth every single day. There are times in which I slip and I process the slipping. These moments give me a lot of learnings and teachings, but I’m consciously trying. It’s not easy, but I’m consciously trying. If I die today, Tami, I will tell you I will die a happy woman.
TS: I’m happy to hear that. Now, Zainab, I do want to ask you one final question. I want to avail myself to this opportunity that I have to be with you here and to learn from you. Which is recently we’ve been, here at Sounds True, creating an online event series called Waking Up in the World.
We’ve been talking to various activists and spiritual teachers, people of one foot in each world about what it means to wake up in our world today. Part of that has been an education, a deep education about what it means to wake up if you’re a person of privilege, if you’re a person who was born into a Caucasian white family in the United States with money and resources. And what does it mean to be aware of that in your life? How do you use your privilege for good? How do you not get drawn into just guilt and shame or ignorance about that?
I think you may have something to share with our audience about this whole topic, having done so much fundraising and given money from people who have it, to people who need it. What’s your view about people who are waking up to their privilege, and how they can have a truthful and useful relationship to that?
ZS: I love this question. I love it because, honestly, I’m being very honest here. Nothing irritates me more than people are whipping themselves because of their privilege. I’m like, “I’m so happy that you are blessed. I mean, people look at my story. They like it. I grew up in war. I knew a dictator. I’ve been raped. I’ve seen poverty.” I worry. They worry.
They’re like, “Oh my god. You have this amazing story. I grew up in this privilege.” That’s like my reaction first, “I’m so happy for you that you don’t have to go through this. You don’t have to lose your home blah-blah-blah, all of that.” I don’t mean blah-blah-blah, it’s horrible. But first of all, don’t whip yourself because you have privilege. Be thankful that you have it. I’m telling you as the other.
I mean I consider myself by the way one of the lucky ones. My father was calling me. The family home that I grew up in became an execution center, a brothel, a military base. Right now, I don’t recognize it. Everything. We lost everything, everything in war. My country is destroyed. My mother is dead. I tell my dad, “But, Dad, we are the lucky ones. We’re the lucky ones. Look at us alive and breathing and having a privileged life.” Rather than whipping yourself, if you are of privilege, first of all, be grateful and enjoy the blessing. What a beautiful gift you have received, one. When people tell me, “I’m so sad.” I’m like, “Get over it, dude. There are people who are going through hell in here, and step out of it in here.”
There’s two reason where people act. There is a reason of, in my case and people like me. The action is out of actually facing injustice and being very angry at injustice. You want to act. You become warriors of justice because you face it. You want to fight it. You want to stop it. This is because this for people who face it and they want to do something. There are people who act against injustice, but they haven’t faced it. I respect people like that a lot because they’re acting out of a great sense of moral value. You see, mine is an emotional reaction. I face it. I react against it. This person is reacting not out of a white privilege, with a sense of moral value and obligation. Deep, deep respect for this person. Don’t beat yourself. Actually, own it. Own the privilege. Now, a few things that I would advise if I may.
TS: Please.
ZS: One is, or give as a tip as being the other side. First, do the personal work. It’s important to do the personal work, and the personal work is be in touch with your feelings. As a women’s rights activist, it was really irritating for me, I have to be honest, white woman of privilege made the discussion of women’s rights about women of color, all this women in the third world, or this African women, or these Afghan women, or these Iraqi, is the other. Now, of course, there is discrimination against white women of privilege as well. There’s harassment and rape and violence and all the same issues in this side as well. Don’t hide from it. Don’t say, “No, no, no. I’m OK in my privilege, it’s this poor woman who has less financial privilege than I have, that I have to take care of her.”
For me, it’s like, “Please, don’t do that.” Please, actually go back to yourself and on your story and don’t compare, “Oh, I have a small story compared to hers”. Don’t do that. Actually, the best way you honor her, you honor me, if I am the other, is to own your story and tell me your story, and don’t apologize for it. It’s so refreshing for me. I’m so excited about the Me Too Movement because it is white women of privilege who stood up and said, “This is happening to me.” And from someone like me “Oh, finally, now that’s sisterhood.” That’s sisterhood. Where you don’t make women’s issues about a woman of color issues, where you make women’s issues as my women’s issues. I have that issue.
First, go and do your inward journey and own your story. Don’t minimize it. Don’t exaggerate it. Own it. Because in our sharing of the story is the first line of respect, in my opinion. More than money, more than anything, nothing. When you show up and you tell me, “That’s my story,” because you want to also hear my story which is fascinating and different, that’s the best respect you can give me. That’s the best honoring you can give me, is a true sharing of your story and non-judgmental way of your story even if it has privilege. That’s first.
Second, access all your emotions as well. Don’t cry for me because I went through this. Be in touch with your tears for yourself like I moved from… By the way, I also acted as that woman of privilege, and made it all about them until I realized I need to own my story. We all have that dynamic. For me, I moved from, “Oh it’s about them,” to, “Oh shit, I have my story and I need to own it.” Then, I’m so scared of my story because there is shame and there is sorrow. There is pain. There’s all of these things. I moved from only feeling it for the other and projecting all my feeling, the intensity on the other, either hating this person or like feeling all the trauma for this person, to actually feeling it in myself and understanding that story.
When I tell you, “I’ll die a happy person,” it’s not that there is no sadness. Tremendous sadness, but I look at it. I work on it. I say, “Oh, this is sadness.” Tremendous loneliness. I look at it and I live it and say, “This is loneliness.” Then, these emotions, they become like books in your library, basically. You know that feeling in yourself. Now, when you’re meeting an African woman or a woman of color in this country, a Latina woman, and she’s gone through this, you’re not sympathizing with her. You’re empathizing because you know that meaning of sadness within you, because you know the meaning of loneliness within you. Do you see what I mean?
TS: I do.
ZS: Go here. Go to your story, own your story first. Acknowledge it and share it, second. Third is work on these feelings inside of you because that by definition helps you connect with the other in a different and a new way of connection out of new respect not patronizing help. The third one is when you are in a privilege, honestly, the best and the biggest thing I can tell you be grateful. It is beautiful. You are blessed. Enjoy it, and act out of the moral responsibility you believe, not I’m imposing on you. You believe that you should own. and give to the world. We then not make it of a savior and victim, but we make it equal in our journey towards our freedom and our truth.
TS: Zainab Salbi, it has been so uplifting to be with you, to feel your strong spine, strength of your spine and your sword of truth, and particularly to read your book, Freedom Is an Inside Job. This is so uplifting, illuminating. I read it on two different plane flights recently and felt myself rising and rising and rising way beyond the altitude of the air as I was reading the book. Thank you so much for all the great hard work you’ve done to help others and within yourself. Thank you.
ZS: Oh, what an honor. Thank you so much.
TS: Thank you. Thank you so much.
ZS: Really appreciate it. Thank you.
TS: Thank you.
