Tami Simon: You’re listening to Insights at the Edge. Today my guest is Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche. Rinpoche is a widely celebrated Buddhist teacher and author of the books Rebel Buddha and Emotional Rescue, as well as other books. He’s a lover of music, art and urban culture, a poet, a photographer, accomplished calligrapher and visual artist, as well as a prolific author. Rinpoche is founder and president of Nalandabodhi, an international network of Buddhist centers and is acknowledged as one of the foremost scholars and meditation masters of his generation in the Nyingma and Kagyu schools of Tibetan Buddhism. He is known for his sharp intellect, humor ,and easygoing teaching style.
In this episode of Insights at the Edge, Rinpoche and I spoke about his interest and commitment to developing a genuine Western dharma tradition and how he works with his students, when it comes to advising them on challenges with Western issues, such as working with money and being in intimate relationships. We also talked about the teacher student relationship in a modern context, and Rinpoche also told us stories of studying with his own teachers. Rinpoche answered the question, “What is spiritual awakening?” and he described three levels of awakening from his tradition. Finally, we talked about the current world situation and Rinpoche’s new project, Go Kind. Here’s my conversation with Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche:
To begin, Rinpoche, I just want to thank you for making the time for this conversation, thank you so much.
Ponlop Rinpoche: Thank you for having me here.
TS: And I want to begin by asking something that feels a little edgy, to me, but I’m curious to know. Here you are, you’re a Rinpoche which from my understanding means that you are a reincarnated, enlightened, meditation master. Here at the beginning, I’m curious to know a little bit about what that’s like for you and if you have memories of past lives, when you were a teacher?
PR: That’s a very heavy-duty question, to begin with. Yes, as you know, in Tibetan Buddhist tradition we have this system of recognizing reincarnate Lamas, and so I was recognized at a very young age as one of the reincarnate Lamas. Now, I cannot really say that I have vivid or clear memories of any past lives or anything like that, but when I engage in study and practice certain things, I feel very comfortable and I learn them pretty easily for me. So, I feel that I have some kind of connection there.
TS: Can you tell our listeners how you were recognized at a young age? What happened?
PR: The story I’ve heard is that before I was born, my first teacher, he saw me as the 16th Karmapa and told my father that I will be born and so I was recognized before I was born. That’s the story I’ve heard, and I can’t say that I’ve heard that because I wasn’t there.
TS: Now, Rinpoche, you’re known for having a gift for making Tibetan Buddhist wisdom accessible to Westerners and developing what could be called a genuine Western dharma. I’m curious if you feel like you’re carrying a certain kind of inner mandate, if you will, or a certain kind of torch in the world, about a genuine Western dharma and what that might mean to you?
PR: Yes. I feel a very strong connection to the Western culture and people in the West here, and I have been here for a long time and one of my main efforts here is to contribute whatever I can to the establishment and the founding of genuine Western Buddhism. So, I feel a very strong call, in fact, that I have this responsibility, to some degree.
TS: Now, what we see in the West today, and I’m sure you’re very familiar with this, is mindfulness as a practice being taken out of its Buddhist context and being introduced without any Buddhist language of any kind. We have mindfulness in business, mindfulness in the education system, et cetera . . .
PR: That’s right.
TS: I’m curious, what do you think about that? How does that land for you?
PR: Well, you know, I’ve been contemplating on that quite a bit, and I think in some degree you could say that it’s been taken out of context, in terms of some of the approaches that it has taken. At the same time, when I look back into the traditional Buddhist teaching, it is actually a part of it.
You know, Buddha taught that there are two approaches, or two vehicles: one is the mundane vehicle and then the other one is the vehicle that will lead oneself to awakening, complete awakening. So, I see some of the approaches here as part of the mundane vehicle, which Buddha taught, in terms of making one’s future existence more comfortable, more virtuous and more abundant with wealth for both physical and mental health. So, I see some of the approaches of the mindfulness that has taken a different route, so to speak, from the more kind of traditional Buddhist approach. I see that as part of this first approach of Buddha’s teaching, which is concerned about making our lives more mindful and more compassionate, more loving, and more—in many ways, more virtuous.
TS: What’s required for the second vehicle, the vehicle of awakening, that people might not be being introduced to in just being introduced to the practice of secular mindfulness? What might be missing from this awakening process?
PR: Yes, so what is taught in the second approach here is a deeper sense of working with our mind and a deeper sense of working with our confusion and the roots of our suffering. So, the second approach requires a little more contemplation, more meditation, and a little more sense of acquiring the wisdom that is necessary for our own self to see one’s own confusion and where it comes from.
TS: Now, Rinpoche, there was a period of time where I hosted a series called Waking Up: What Does it Really Mean? Believe it or not, I interviewed 23 different people for this series and, interestingly, I got 23 different answers about what spiritual awakening is. That was, for me, such an eye-opener—that it’s not just one thing, where everybody gives the same answer. So, I’m curious to know from you, what is spiritual awakening, to you?
PR: For me, it’s basically the end of confusion and the end of ignorance, to which—I myself included—we create so much causes of suffering, for one’s self and for others. So, the end of that confusion is the beginning of awakening.
TS: Now when you say “the beginning of awakening,” it sounds like you’re referring to different levels, or that it’s a continuing process of some kind. Can you speak to that?
PR: Yes. Sometimes, we think of awakening as being just one moment, but actually it could be seen as many moments that lead us to one complete awakening because it is difficult for oneself to gain a complete awakening right off the bat. Therefore, we may get a little awakening here and there, which can lead us to the complete awakening. For that reason, traditional Buddhist teachings say that there are three levels of awakening.
TS: Can you tell us what those three levels are?
PR: Yes. Three levels of awakening. The first is seeing one’s own confusion and freeing oneself from that; and secondly, seeing the illusion of the world outside—not just seeing the confusion, or the delusion that goes within our heads but also seeing the appearances clearly, the whole phenomenal world. Thirdly then, when we have these two together, in one union, then there’s the complete awakening.
TS: OK, well now I have a confession: I’m a little confused about confusion. [Rinpoche laughs. ] What I mean is, when I hear you say this definition of “seeing our own confusion,” I wonder if you can unpack that a little bit for me? There’s so many aspects, I think, of confusion. I’m emotionally confused, I’m mentally confused, I don’t understand this, that . . .
PR: Well, there’s a lot we can talk about, this confusion, but fundamentally speaking, the real confusion here is but a thought. It’s our basic ignorance of not seeing our own fundamental potential—not seeing our own wisdom and compassion and, due to our confusion, then we get involved and caught up into duality of good and bad, and then friends and enemies, and so on, and to which, when we engage in that, then we get more and more sucked in. And we get more emotions, then the emotions lead us to action—verbal action, physical action—and then that action causes karma. So, at the end, we are making our own mind even more confused at the end, in this process of thinking that we are actually getting somewhere but actually we are going backward.
TS: That’s helpful.
PR: I’m not sure if that makes sense.
TS: It did makes sense. One of the things I’m curious about, you said that you have this affinity with Westerners and teaching in the West. Do you think that Westerners have a particular “Western” type of confusion, if you will? Or certain obstacles when it comes to the path of dharma that are unique to the Western mind?
PR: Well, there’s no really—like you know, Western confusions versus the confusions in the East, but what I understand, or how I understand the dharma is that, due to our habits and conditioning, then we have a different way of seeing things or looking at things. So, therefore, we have different habits that are based on the same confusion of ignorance. So, certainly, I see some of the habitual patterns in the West and some of the sort of like neurosis, so to speak, here, is slightly different from some of the habits and neurosis in the East.
TS: Can you be more specific about that? Like what particular habits, or conditioned ways of being?
PR: Well, there’s generally different cultural backgrounds; each cultural background is based on different values and different sets of values and different sets of norms. So based on that, we have a different way of looking at things. You know, for example, like in the West, we have this sense—especially in America, since I live here—we have this sense of pride [and] it’s basically something to be proud of; it’s usually seen as something positive. At the same time—I’m just generalizing this, I’m not being specific here, but generally speaking in the East, in many of the Eastern cultures, pride is seen as something negative. People shouldn’t have that sense of pride or being proud of something. So, you can see the basic premise is different here and, based on that, we have different mental afflictions developed. But there’s both pros and cons in each culture.
In the West and having this kind of culture—for example, saying “OK, being proud is a good thing,” it helps us to gain more sense of self-confidence, it gives us a tool to achieve things and so there’s positive things too. Whereas pride is seen as negative in the East, it also has some negative impacts, such as people sometimes lacking self-confidence or having the sense of always relying on others and so on. So, therefore, I think it really depends on how we work with these neuroses.
TS: Now, one of the things I’m curious about is the quality of rebelliousness. You’re the author of the book Rebel Buddha: A Guide to a Revolution of Mind, and when I think of Americans in particular, I think of this holding up of the rebel quality—we’re a nation of rebels. Do you see rebelliousness as having positive qualities? And what might be the negative parts of rebelliousness that we want be sure to steer clear of?
PR: That’s a very good question. I generally see—simply being rebellious doesn’t mean positive or negative and the question here is how you direct that energy and if that energy of being rebellious contains any sense of wisdom or not, any sense of compassion or not. When there’s a sense of wisdom in this heart of rebelliousness, then it’s positive in my opinion, and that’s why I said in the book too that our own Buddha Shakyamuni, he was a rebel. And he has cut through so many cultural concepts, and he has cut through so much of the cultural norms and status quo, and found so many different ways to make our lives better, and so many different ways to bring equal rights, joy, and happiness in the community of that time, and it continues to do so.
So, if there was a sense of being rebel, with a true heart of wisdom and having this sense of a soft heart of kindness, then it is a positive thing. But when this rebellious heart becomes more tied to—not with wisdom or intellect, but it connects with just emotion and confusion, then it leads to a great suffering not only for oneself but for a tremendous number of beings.
TS: Now Rinpoche, I certainly feel your wisdom heart, and I’m curious to know, in what ways are you a rebel?
PR: [Laughs.] Oh well, I think embracing a Western Buddhism is, I think, part of that; and taking his journey outside of my own culture and adopting another culture, I see that as part of my rebellious journey here. I’ve always this heart of really searching for a genuine teachings of the Buddha, not just as a culture or tradition, but finding the real wisdom in the message of the Buddha and his heart of compassion. So that kind of journey that I’ve taken, sometimes is not necessarily in line with the status quo.
TS: When I think of this Western rebelliousness, I think some people have this idea—one way that that expresses, and it can even feel like intelligence, is, “I’m on the spiritual path and I’ll find out what’s real for myself. I’m not sure I want to work with a teacher; there’s so many stories of teachers who have been involved in this scandal or that scandal, do I really want to give my authority for my spiritual life to a teacher?”
My question for you is, how do you see the role of a teacher given this landscape?
PR: Yes. I think the first thing I’ve discovered here in the West is that the general Western audience is far better educated than many of the people that I grew up [with], you know, in my community in the East. So, therefore, there are many things that Western students can learn on their own. I don’t see any problem with that. Taking that approach of learning dharma on your own, there’s no problem, in many situations.
At the same time, sometimes it becomes helpful to have someone who can share the experience of working through the same path. Like, when we travel to some place, we can just do it on ourselves, you know, without looking at Lonely Planet or without relying any kind of guidebooks or anything and say “I’m going to find myself and discover India.” That would be very adventurous and it would be a very interesting journey.
At the same time, if you talk to someone who’s been there before, right, like people who wrote Lonely Planet guidebooks or other guidebooks, then you can learn something from that. Right? From another person’s journey, and sometimes you can shortcut many of the things that you may have to spend time to learn on your own.
So, therefore, I think there’s a role for teacher, but what kind of role the teacher might play in the West is still in process of discovery.
TS: Well that was a very balanced and open answer, in terms of talking about traveling to another country, but it left me wondering, what about the function that I would refer to as ‘transmission’? Meaning some kind of communication of a state of being that isn’t really something that can be described, but the teacher communicates that state of wakefulness in some way. What about that function?
PR: I can only speak from my own experience, right?
TS: Yes, thank you.
PR: And I can’t speak for anyone else. So, from my own experience, I’ve benefited a lot from getting the direct teaching and transmission from my teachers. There’s something in there, in my experience, that made these teachings more alive, that made these instructions more alive.
For me, it’s a little bit like when you read about the certain mystics from the past, alchemy or magic or the Egyptian Book of Dead or something like that, it is really hard to imagine the living quality of that. We would have to guess a lot and have to kind of like, you know, spin our head around it. But if there is a person who is practicing that and has mastered it, mastered that teaching to a certain degree, then it certainly changes the dynamic, you know? So it was something like that for me, and I’ve practiced on my own and studied on my own, of course, and at the same time when I am sitting with my teacher, I felt tremendous sense of a leap.
TS: I wonder would you be able to share a story of an interaction with one of your great teachers, where that leap was very alive for you? What happened? What was going on?
PR: Yes. I was practicing meditation for, of course, for a while, and I have this kind of struggle of sustaining it, you know? We can sit and meditate a few minutes or whatever and have a great experience, but to sustain that experience for a longer period of time has been a struggle, for me.
So it was a long time ago, but one day my teacher was teaching, and I was taking notes, as usual—I’m quite precise with my notes and so on. So, I was diligently taking notes and then suddenly I realized that this is a moment that I have with my teacher, so why don’t I just sit here and experience his presence? So, I stopped taking notes, and I started to sit and meditate in his presence and then suddenly I experienced that, without even thinking how to sustain it or not. I came out of my meditation and then I realized that it was different from my previous times of meditation, then I learned or managed how to sustain it—sustained a sense of calmness and peace and joy. So, for example, that’s one of my experiences.
TS: Now I know ,Rinpoche, that you had the chance in your life to study with Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, and I wonder if you could share a little bit, maybe, of a story of an exchange between you, to bring him alive for our listeners in some way?
PR: Yes. Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, he was very kind, and of course I need not mention his mastery over study and practice, but he was a very kind person and kind teacher. I studied with Rinpoche for a number of years and one of my encounters with him was that, I was really, really ill when I was young—I was a teenager—then one day I received a letter in the mail from Khyentse Rinpoche. I was surprised to receive his letter, and so I opened the letter and there was his letter expressing his concerns and wanting to know about my illnesses, and then at the same time, he sent me a handwritten index card with an instruction of how I can practice with my sickness.
So, that was very touching and I was in India at that time and I had not seen index cards that much and so I was also very kind of like, you know, fascinated by the fact of that it’s on an index card. And later on when I came to the West, you know, index cards all over Office Depot. Yes.
TS: Well it’s interesting, Rinpoche, as we talk about this function of the teacher, I noticed that when you first described the travel guidebook approach, I could see how many people from a Western mind would feel very comfortable with that. it’s so acceptable, open, logical—you know, this person’s been there before, they can help you. Then I notice, as I hear you talk about your own experience with the great teachers you’ve studied with, there’s a devotional heart quality that opens up in me, that I would hate to get lost when we think of the future of genuine Western dharma and the role of the teacher. So, I think, that’s what I’m pondering, and I wonder what your thoughts are about that?
PR: Yes. You know, I think we usually think of teachers with the idea mixed with schools, colleges, and universities, as well as some religious environment. But the fact of the matter, in my experience of upbringing in the Buddhist culture is that the teachers not only teach and meditate with you, but also they are very compassionate, and that’s why I wanted to share that story of Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
So, there’s this sense of a mutual kindness and mutual sense of trust in each other. So, therefore the devotion aspect here, in my opinion, is that it’s a mutual trust, that we develop. The most important quality of teachers, as my teacher taught me, told me, was that one must have a genuine compassion and a genuine care for others, and have the sense of caring for others’ welfare more than for yourself. So, if we have that kind of teacher, I don’t see how that teacher can be a negative impact on students.
So, therefore, teacher student relationship in the West, of course, it’s a very new thing and so there’s a lot of misunderstanding, and it is really important for students to check the teachers and their qualities, their track records, so to speak, and then one must decide. So there has to be good checking, from the student’s point of view, as well as teachers are instructed to check your own students. Checking in the sense that if that student is suitable for you and if there’s something you can offer or not, you know? If the student’s need is not something that you can offer, then you must redirect that person to another teacher if you know [of one]; if not, you must tell the student that they may want to look for someone that can provide them with what they need.
TS: I’d be curious, in your experience, what kinds of things come up in students where you think “Oh, I might need to redirect this person”?
PR: Oh, there’s so many different things, like some are very interested in ritual, you know? Rituals and learning how to practice in Tibetan or in kind of Asian languages and so on, and those, I feel, it’s better they found another teacher, you know? Because in our community we do practice everything in English and we’re trying to be part of the effort of establishing Western or American Buddhism. For example, we’re not really into heavy-duty rituals here, especially in foreign languages, and so I had some situations where I felt like they are maybe better suited with going into some kind of traditional centers.
TS: That’s helpful. Now when we talk about something like American dharma, Western dharma, one of the things I’m curious about is how you work with your students when challenges around—OK I’m going to say it—money come up? Working with money! Do you have Dharmic teachings on that?
PR: I think everybody knows the teachings on dharma, the practice of generosity, and also I think it’s really important for American Buddhist communities to think about that we need to function here in the context of the culture of American tradition here, you know?
And so sometimes there’s a little bit of mix-up; like in Asia the way the money is handled is very different right? There’s usually the culture or tradition of lay communities supporting the causes of dharma. Like, if there’s a teaching, there are a lot of sponsors, big sponsors, and if there’s some event, there’s also big sponsors. The community just chips in naturally without even being, you know, asked, sometimes.
Whereas here, we don’t have that culture and we don’t have that kind of tradition here, or Buddhist base. So, therefore, it has to function in a different way, such as a lot of centers use membership process or a lot of centers are using fundraising events and so on. So, I think, we’re getting a little mix-up with like free dharma in the East, you know, thinking that it has to be here in the West, too, but without having some kind of sponsorship there, you know? So, starting with the venue and starting with the sound system and people who are volunteering or helping, there’s always certain costs they need to cover, which has to come from somewhere.
TS: I’ve noticed, as someone who’s running a business here—Sounds True, with 120 employees—that sometimes my own sense of the Bodhisattva vow and wanting to be generous towards others, and then my own desire for having an overflow of abundance in the business and in my own personal life as well—sometimes I feel some confusion around all of that, and how to find a sort of just and balanced view. I’m wondering what you might have to say about that?
PR: I think it’s very important for everyone to be comfortably supported—your living situation, as well as your family and aging parents care and so on. One needs to take care of that and that kind of support is very important. On the other hand, then sometimes we may have extras; we may have extra resources and sometimes if we don’t look carefully, maybe we’re just wasting our extra resources in things that are not necessarily needed, or sometimes not even being mindful or careful about it. So, these resources are going into something that may not really benefit you or others at the end.
So, when you are in such a situation, yes, I think it’s important to prioritize and see if your resources can benefit some other sentient beings, or if your resources can be used in a way that can benefit oneself to develop deeper insight and deeper compassion. So, therefore, I think one of the things that becomes quite important and I think we all know that, is how we prioritize.
TS: That’s very helpful, thank you. Now another area that I’m sure you hear a lot about from your students is challenges in intimate relationships. I read an article in which you wrote about intimate relationships as “a great mirror.” I’m wondering how you work with your students, your Western students, on the challenges they face in their intimate relationships?
PR: I usually advise them, if it’s not a really serious problem; and if I sense anything that’s really serious, I usually recommend them for couples therapy or [to] go to some professional help. Because, in the past, I’ve tried my best to help people and sometimes I see no result. In fact, I just feel like I failed to help them and then I realize that some of these things need actually more professional support.
My usual approach to help them is that, if it’s not that serious problem, is that I say that in our Tibetan tradition we say, when the relationships come together, it’s like two circles joined together, halfway. So, when two circles come together there’s some overlapping part, and that overlapping part of the circle is what we call relationship, or family, you know? That part is [what] both couple should take care and then both couple should share.
But at the same time, there’s two other halves left on each side, which is actually something that one another has to respect, that we must give space to each other—in terms of their religious beliefs, or in terms of their hobbies, such as sports, or their interests, like maybe going out and working in some kind of charity or whatnot. So, at the time, these two halves on each side are not totally unconnected and so therefore you are bound by some sense of commitment here, you know? So, you cannot say you’re totally free to do anything. To find that balance, finding that balance is the key to having a healthy relationship in general. Not only that, but when you find difficulty with each other, sometimes you must reflect inside to see if this difficulty is actually like a mirror showing my own fault, sometimes, you know?
TS: One thing I’d be curious about, Rinpoche, is that, in your own life, if it’s OK to ask, when you aspire to bring the aspire to bring the dharma into every part of your life, is there an aspect of your life where you find that the most challenging, for you?
PR: Yes. Yes, of course, I find many cases challenging, I don’t know where to begin, so to speak. I’m usually telling myself like “Oh, this is my new opportunity,” you know? If I can work on this one, then I can work with anything. Let’s say working with your family is challenging sometimes. You know, there’s a lot of emotional and history, baggage, which sometimes are true and sometimes are a little bit exaggerated in my mind.
TS: When you say working with your family, do you mean with your wife and, if you have children, is that what you’re referring to?
PR: Yes, and also like you know, your own family.
TS: You mean your parents, or brothers and sisters?
PR: Upbringing and things like that, uncles and what have you.
TS: Yes. But it’s very interesting you said that when that happens you see it as an opportunity. I think that’s a very profound teaching, right there.
PR: That’s what I’ve been taught, and I’m trying to use that, and I’m trying to see like, “OK, when this comes up I must examine it. I must analyze and ask questions and see how much of it is really true and how much of it is maybe just my own spinning.”
TS: What kinds of questions? The kinds of questions you’re just describing, asking what’s inside you, what’s inside the other person, what other way do you disentangle the confusion?
PR: First of all, asking questions like when you say “Oh, this and this and this happened, right?” Then I ask myself questions like, “Is this really what happened or is this what I’m telling myself it happened?” That’s one thing that’s been helpful for me, and second thing is to ask myself and say, “Is this how I am interpreting now? Or are there words that I remember or images that are clear?” Asking these questions help me to see myself clearly and sometimes I say, “Oh, yes, I remember something.” [Laughs. ] Then next day, when I reflect, I’m not sure about it. I’m just talking about myself, though.
TS: Yes, yes. One final thing I wanted to talk to you about, in terms of contemporary Western dharma, has to do with the concern, I think, that many of us have right now in our time. It has to do with the world at large and a deep concern about our current ecological crisis and race relations and fear of nuclear war, that we’re on the brink of a nuclear war. I’m wondering what your senses of how our meditation practice, our dharma practice, can actually have the biggest social impact and what you see is the connection there?
PR: I think, I always remember this line from my teacher, 16th Karmapa; in the 70s he was asked about the Cold War and people saying like “Oh, you know, there’s going to be nuclear war anytime, and you know, [the] world is ever getting worse,” and so forth and so on and asked him, “What do you think?” And after the interpreter finished translating, then my teacher, 16th Karmapa, burst into a great laughter, big laughter, and then he said, “The world has always been like this.” So, I try to remember that and say as bad as it is right now, but it has been, it has been pretty bad for a long time; and at the same time, it’s been improving for a while now.
So what I try to tell my friends is that the most important [thing] for us is that we all develop the sense of genuine kindness for each other. Genuine kindness—you know, if two [people] can develop kindness and then three [people] can develop kindness, and if we can spread that kindness around the world, then one day our world will be filled with kindness. We need to take action—not only meditate, not only pray, but we need to take actions.
That’s why I’ve been—for me, what I’ve been doing is that I’ve been launching this campaign on Facebook, Go Kind. That’s one way for me to try to help with my meditation or my practice in this situation in the world.
TS: I didn’t know you were launching or that you’re in the midst of a campaign called Go Kind on Facebook. What kinds of suggestions are you making to help people Go Kind?
PR: We’re just starting it and, for example, I’ve been suggesting to people that [they] try to—let’s say a very simple thing: try to make someone smile today. You know? Ask the world, ask the people you see to spread that smile, so if one person can make three people smile and then each one of three can make three persons smile, then someday we will fill the world with smile, smiling faces. So that’s one thing; the other thing is we have lots of different things that they can do in each city, in each community. Yes, so we’ve just started this year, I think, yes.
TS: Beautiful. You know, my final comment here is a little odd but what I’ve noticed throughout this whole conversation, Rinpoche, is your deep humility, a real humility about you. I don’t know if you feel that on the inside or what that’s like when you hear me say that.
PR: I’ve always been like that and, some people think I’m goofy. I feel that humor is a very important piece of our life. Without humor, our world will be much darker, and whenever there’s a darkness in your life, if you can bring a smile, if you crack a joke, that will make everything much lighter, you know? Therefore, I think humor is very essential and very important in my opinion.
TS: I’ve been speaking with Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche, he’s the author of the book Rebel Buddha: A Guide to a Revolution of Mind and Emotional Rescue: How to Work With Your Emotions to Transform Hurt and Confusion Into Energy that Empowers You. Rinpoche, thank you so much for your humor and your humility and your kindness and goodness, thank you. Thank you so much.
PR: Thank you so much Tami, thank you for having me here.
TS: SoundsTrue.com: many voices, one journey. Thanks for listening.