Taoist Sexual Secrets

Tami Simon: This program is brought to you by SoundsTrue.com. For those seeking genuine transformation, SoundsTrue.com is your trusted partner on the spiritual journey, offering diverse, in-depth, and life-changing wisdom. Many voices, one journey. SoundsTrue.com.

You are listening to Insights at the Edge. Today I speak with Rachel Abrams and Lee Holden. Rachel is a medical doctor specializing in family medicine, and the author of The Multiorgasmic Woman and The Multiorgasmic Couple. Lee is a licensed acupuncturist and an internationally known instructor in meditation, tai chi, and chi gung. I spoke with Rachel and Lee about their work with Taoist master Mantak Chia. We discussed the wisdom of the Taoist sexual secrets of Ancient China and how we can apply these practices to direct and enhance the flow of sexual energy in our bodies.

So you two are teaching partners, and you are also business partners, but you are not actually sexual partners—but yet you teach about sex together.

Lee Holden: That is correct.

Tami Simon: I am curious if that gets a little strange. You know, like, here you are spending all this time together, you are talking about sex, yet you are not actually having sex together.

Lee Holden: Right.

Tami Simon: What do your partners think? I mean, you are both married.

Rachel Abrams: Right. Well, actually it is what we teach, which is having integrity with your sexual energy. So the practice that we teach is all about being able to handle your sexual energy within your self. So it is going to come up, as you are in the world, it is going to come up in the workplace. And this practice teaches you how to take that energy, move it in your body, and keep it contained so that you can have integrity in your relationships.

Lee is my husband’s best friend, and I am very close to his wife.

Tami Simon: And you are not all having group sex or anything. Right?

Rachel Abrams: Yeah, right [laughs] with all the children around. No. I am as invested in Lee’s marriage being successful as I am in my marriage being successful, because I can see that is what is best for Lee. So the intention and the heart connection have to take precedence over the sexual energy, which is just energy.

Lee Holden: And that is the nice thing about this practice. It doesn’t…it allows you to use and transform your own energy as opposed to project it out there or feel like you need to pull energy in toward you in order to make you feel complete. It allows you to be in control of that energy as a feeling, instead of the feeling of being out of control. And I think that has so many implications in all different aspects of your life, in all different relationships.

Tami Simon: So I am curious just in terms of what happens between the two of you and how you work with it, since you know these techniques so well. So you are working together and you find yourself in the process of teaching Taoist sexual secrets, feeling some kind of arousal, but yet you want to be in integrity with your marriage partners, etc. How do you work with that?

Lee Holden: It has been easy and effortless. It is not…

Rachel Abrams: It is just not difficult.

Lee Holden: It is easy. We are such good friends and we are able to talk about anything and issues that are happening or challenges that are happening at work or in relationships. It is just very effortless, and that is why I think it works so well for us. Because there is a natural balance in the skill sets that we have, especially at work. Rachael will, you know, set some really clear boundaries and I will be a little bit more fluid and flowing with certain things. And we are able to be structured and relaxed and flowing about things, so it really works extremely well.

Tami Simon: I think what maybe my questions are pointing to is that some idea that sexuality is such a nuclear force, that we can’t really control it. Do you know what I mean? Let those two beautiful people out there…how are they going to…you know? And yet that is what you are talking about, that it is a nuclear force, but that it doesn’t have to be one that controls us.

Lee Holden: Exactly.

Rachel Abrams: I’ve often described this practice like conscious dreaming. So most of us just dream, we go to sleep, we dream. It happens to us, in a sense. Instead of conscious dreaming where you actually manage to within the dream have some control over what happens. And I think this sexual practice is like that. So it is not like most of us where sexuality takes over our body and we surrender to it, as you really have to to have real pleasure. But this practice allows you to both surrender and maintain some control over the flow of that energy, over the length of time of that energy, and over the extent of that energy. So it gives you skills, not just in the bedroom, but when I walk around in my life, you know, I own that energy. I am best friends with it. Lee and I joke about sex all the time. But we joke about it and it is light and it is playful because I am containing my own energy; he is containing his energy and the integrity of our commitment it what we believe in and what our vision is is such that it feels easy.

Tami Simon: So just to summarize for people, can you give them just in introduction to what Taoist sexual secrets are? I mean, we sort of went off and running because I am so curious how two such beautiful people like you aren’t, you know, having sex wildly all the time while you are teaching this. But I think you have answered my question. I believe you, actually. But what are the practices in a nutshell, if you could sort of summarize them for people who aren’t familiar?

Rachel Abrams: Yeah, so we teach a couple of practices–the inner smile, healing sounds–that help people get into alignment emotionally. It is very important that if you are going to use sexual energy, which is so powerful in your body, that you are in alignment. Energy is just energy. But if you take powerful energy and you run it through someone who is angry, you are going to amplify anger. So we want people to be in alignment in their body and teach them the basic movement of energy through the microcosmic orbits, so that is up the back and down the front in a very basic energy channel.

Tami Simon: So let’s take that very slowly. Up the back, down the front. Can you…how do I? I am breathing in that way? Or…

Rachel Abrams: So you would move the energy, let’s just say we are doing the sexual practice and you have to have preparation before doing this. I would never teach this to someone off the bat. But with that said, you take the sexual energy from the sexual organs in your body and you move it with the intention of your mind, also by contracting the pc muscle or the pubococcygeal muscle, the muscle we use for kegel exercises, more people are familiar with that. And we move that energy into the spine, up through the spine, let it rise to the head, circulate it in the head, let it nourish the brain and the glands, and let is come back down the front of the body and sink into the abdomen, where we store the energy.

Now, all along the way that energy, that pulsing beautiful energy, is spreading throughout the body. So this is why we talk about people not just having orgasm but expanded orgasm, because we are moving that pulsating, lovely, orgasmic energy through your whole body.

Tami Simon: So when you are breathing it up the spine, are you imagining it, seeing it, kind of in your mind as a light or as a fluid or something going actually up the center of the spine?

Rachel Abrams: You can do it in any of those ways. And we use a variety of techniques, both visual and tactile, because people have different ways that appeal to them or work for them. So I sometimes visualize it as a fluid, like sipping it up a straw. I sometimes visualize it as heat or steam rising up the spine. You can see it as light climbing up the spine. Whatever works, because the metaphor is just a metaphor. The energy is the thing itself.

Tami Simon: And when it gets to the top of the spine…I just want to be very specific here and really learn this myself, a little bit, in the course of our dialogue and for our listeners. So when it gets up to the top of the spine, then what does it do in the head region before it flows back down.

Rachel Abrams: So it comes to the back of the head to the “jade pillow” and then you bring it up to the inside of the brain and actually circulate it in the brain because that energy is so beautiful for creativity and for clearing the mind and for stimulating consciousness and for spiritual connection. That you move it in your mind, and then you let it drop back down your body to store it, so that you actually increase your vital energy or your chi.

So the whole practice is transforming sexual energy to vital energy chi. And ultimately if it is done in connection with an open heart to spiritual energy.

Tami Simon: Now one thing you mentioned is the inner smile, as well as this circulation technique, the inner smile being something you do to prepare. What is that? What is the inner smile?

Lee Holden: Well we say that you need to prepare because sexual energy amplifies. It is multiplying. It is like…it is a pure force. So it will amplify whatever energy we have in the body, so we use the inner smile or the healing sounds as a way to transform let’s say old emotional energy that is blocked in the body. So that when we amplify the energy in the body we are amplifying positive energy as opposed to amplifying negative energy. So we talk about chi in terms of quality and quantity. The sexual practice would be increasing the quantity of energy that you have. Whereas things like the inner smile or the healing sounds or some breathing exercises would be improving the quality of your chi. So we want to be working with both of those. Not just doing the sexual practice where we are just infusing the body with a lot more energy. But we also want to be refining it at the same time.

Tami Simon: Can you summarize for me what the inner smile is? Just introduce it to me.

Lee Holden: Smiling is a way of creating positive energy because anytime we are smiling it sends a message to the body to feel good. So we are focusing that smiling energy into areas in the body where we store emotional energy. Like in the West we refer to the heart as holding love, which is the same as in the East, but we also talk about all the emotional energies that get stored in the heart but the rest of the internal organs as well. What gets stored in the liver? Or the kidneys? Or the digestion? And we use this smile to smile into the temple of the body to transform the negative or blocked energy into positive energy, kind of like you do compost and use that for a garden. That is the metaphor. We compost old negative emotional energy and use that for fertile ground to grow our virtuous or positive emotions.

Tami Simon: Now, Rachael, I know you wrote a book The Multiorgasmic Woman So this circulation technique has something to do with women having multiple orgasms. Is that correct? Is there a connection here?

Rachel Abrams: Well, there is a connection. The first book was actually The Multiorgasmic Man and…

Tami Simon: You wrote The Multiorgasmic Man?

Rachel Abrams: My husband wrote The Multiorgasmic Man with Mantak Chia. We wrote The Multiorgasmic Couple with Mantak Chia. And I wrote The Multiorgansmic Woman with him as well.

So that the way that it relates to orgasm and particularly with men, the Taoist practice allows men to separate between orgasm and ejaculation, which is a very new concept in western science though it has been in Taoist practices for 5,000 years.

Tami Simon: It is a little mind bending.

Rachel Abrams: Yes, a little mind bending. But there is a moment…and part of what we train men to do is to be very sensitive to their arousal and their sexual energy. You know, to have that intimate relationship with your sexual energy so that you can come to that point where orgasm takes place but stop just before ejaculation. And we use a variety of Taoist techniques to help men do that. But it is absolutely possible, and it allows men to thereby be multiorgasmic or to have an orgasmic pattern that looks more like a female pattern.

Tami Simon: Okay so let’s just pause there for a moment. What are men doing so that they are not ejaculating but that they are having an orgasm and then continuing to have a multiple orgasm? What are the techniques that they use at that point?

Lee Holden: It is similar to what Rachael was describing on channeling that energy, so that energy, that microcosmic orbit that moves through the body is a pathway. So you can move sexual energy through that pathway. So in Taoism they describe the nine different levels of orgasm, the nine different levels which would be…One would be the genital orgasm, which most of us in the West are familiar with and just stop there. And then it goes up through the body, through the senses, through the brain, through the glands. And they even describe soul orgasms or spiritual orgasms. How does that energy transform? Because they say that that energy is the same energy that connects us to the divine, as it connects us to each other. So if we can refine or distill that energy, transform it, then that orgasmic energy expands to the rest of the body.

So it is the same quality of sensation, but it just moves into different locations and lasts much longer.

Tami Simon: Okay, we were talking before though about this idea of surrender versus making something conscious. So what happens for a man? They are getting to this point where traditionally they would just have an ejaculation. What are they doing?

Lee Holden: So the techniques would be a breathing exercise, contracting certain muscles. For example, most men aren’t familiar with the pelvic floor muscles, whereas maybe women are from kegel exercises. So contracting, learning how to contract, that muscle at the same time. So you are actually switching your nervous system by contracting muscles instead of being in a sympathetic response, where your body is saying to ejaculate, you are contracting muscles to cut that switch and go into a more relaxation mode where that energy then circulates or gets drawn back into the body. And so that energy moves into the body and then it is like dancing back and forth as opposed to just moving downward.

Tami Simon: I gotcha. Okay. I am sure women who are listening are wanting multiorgasmic men.

Rachel Abrams: I highly recommend it.

Tami Simon: Yeah.

Rachel Abrams: Or any partner who does the Taoist practice. It doesn’t matter female/female. Male/male. Male/female. The practice itself makes you a much more dynamic person sexually, you know. And back to that original question you asked us. The other reason Lee and I are happily married and friends with each other is that our marriages are so incredible, and the reason that that is the case is that sexual energy and romantic energy gets emphasized and enhanced on a regular basis. And that creates an incredibly powerful bond.

Tami Simon: Okay, so we have the potential of a multiorgasmic man. Let’s just talk a bit more about this. Like, how many orgasms? Or do you stop counting? Or…

Lee Holden: Yeah, and you don’t really count. And it is a different sensation than maybe what you are expecting or what you are used to, because it is a prolonged feeling as opposed to what Montauk Chia describes as the Big Bang, where you go and have orgasm/ ejaculation and then this complete crash and goodnight kind of thing. It is like these valleys and peaks where the energy continually builds through the body. And what happens for men is that you will feel that energy, you will feel a lot more vitality. We say the sexual energy gets transformed into chi, or creative energy, or whatever it is that you want to use if for during your day becomes your life force energy. And the incredible thing that happens is that your connection to your partner stays really fresh or alive or connected because that energy is maintained as opposed to dissipated.

Tami Simon: How long is a sexual lovemaking, multiorgamsic session?

Rachel Abrams: It depends on whether you have twins or not [laughs].

Lee Holden: Yeah. You can definitely have Taoist quickies, which, you know, you could just be experiencing the energy. But it can really go for hours and hours if you wanted it to, without feeling tired. It supercharges everything. It is a pretty incredible amazing practice.

Rachel Abrams: And just to say, you know, in that the energy is so intense…and again, you have to be, to be able to receive and hold that energy, your heart has to be open. And it really is as if it fuses you with the cosmos. It puts you in this altered state. I mean, we have scientific research done on Mantak Chia showing that his brainwaves in fact are in the same state as deep meditation and that they stayed that way more so with the sexual practice than with any other practice.

Tami Simon: How did they test that?

Rachel Abrams: Doing EEG brainwaves.

Tami Simon: But I mean, was he engaged in having sex? He was doing the micro..?

Lee Holden: He was doing just pulling up and circulating sexual energy.

Tami Simon: I gotcha.

Lee Holden: Visualizing it moving in his body while they were testing it. And the interesting this about it was like he was in deep meditation and active at the same time. So it was different than just being in deep meditation—but all the brainwaves went up, whereas in meditators certain brainwaves went down and the ones for relaxation went up. So they were confused because he was in this high-level energy state and deep relaxation at the same time.

Tami Simon: Amazing.

Rachel Abrams: And for many people that is the moment at which we feel closest to the divine. You know, where we really feel fused with the universe in that way. And it is a beautiful, spiritual experience.

Tami Simon: Okay, so now the multiorgasmic woman.

Rachel Abrams: And I often talk about this…how much to surrender, how much to control, in this context. Because orgasm for women, for many women, can be more of a struggle than it is for men. It takes a little more…you know, we talk about how women are like water in Taoism; they take a little longer to heat up but once they heat up they boil for a long time. Men are like fire. They heat up quickly but they also burn out quickly.

Tami Simon: Yeah.

Rachel Abrams: And it takes a little more technique and intention and more emotional alignment. Women…we also talk about how the heart needs to be open for a woman to be open. And a woman’s sexual organs, the entrance to them, symbolically or from an acupressure point of view, is the heart. So a woman’s heart needs to be open.

So there are a variety of…

Tami Simon: When you say that from an acupressure point of view is the heart, what do you mean specifically?

Rachel Abrams: What I mean is that the body can be mapped out in Chinese medicine on the ear, on the foot. Many people are familiar with that—acupressure on the foot. The body is also mapped out on the genitals.

Tami Simon: Oh. There is a whole…the map of my whole body is contained in my…

Lee Holden: It is the reflexology of…you know, like foot reflexology your whole body is there. There is also sexual reflexology and how the body is mapped, in microsystems, the smaller areas in the body, how it reflects everything else in the body.

Tami Simon: And so you are saying on the woman’s vagina or what?

Rachel Abrams: Yes, on the vulva, the vagina, and the cervix and the uterus. Chinese organ systems are actually represented there. So I mean, there are a few reasons that is important. One is that any kind of sexual interaction where there is contact with those areas is therapeutic. It contributes to the flow of chi and the healing energy in those areas. And also for a woman she needs a certain degree of arousal before she ever gets to orgasm. And so if there is stimulation of all of those points she is more likely to be at that place.

So when a woman actually has orgasm, she doesn’t lose energy to the same degree a man does, because he is actually losing seed, seminal seed, sexual essence. It is different for women. We are not losing our eggs every time we have an orgasm, but still there is a little bit of energy lost. And if instead of having a lovely orgasm, not that there is anything wrong with that, you are using the breathing exercise and the exercise we described earlier, contracting the pc muscle, which, by the way, is contracting with orgasm anyway. Again it is like this conscious dreaming idea. So the orgasm begins to happen and you actually put your attention and your energy into that pc muscle as it is contracting and contract with it. And pull that energy into the body.

And there are a couple of things about that. One is that you are transforming that energy as we described, spreading it throughout the body and nourishing the body, and the other thing is you can actually keep contracting and keep contracting and extend the experience of orgasm to the point that it is almost, it is not even multiple orgasm, it is kind of beyond orgasm. You can actually get to a state where orgasm kind of rolls like a mountain range on and on and on. And you have to decide when you want to be finished with that particular experience.

Tami Simon: So, if you were to graph this out. What I think you are saying is that most of the time when people think of having a quickie or just having sex or it is nothing, and what you are describing is something really, really different.

Rachel Abrams: Which looks like rolling pleasure. So that the focus isn’t really on orgasm, the focus is on pleasure and sexual energy and connection.

Tami Simon: And that there would be different health benefits from this rolling motion.

Rachel Abrams: Absolutely. As a physician, the large pile of research that is available on the benefits of sexuality for health are impressive. So there are fewer heart attacks in folks…and this is controlling for all other factors. Fewer heart attacks. Less depression. It decreases chronic pain. There is the release of a variety of hormones that are balancing for the body: estrogen, testosterone, dhea, which is kind of the anti-aging hormone.

Lee Holden: And this is just for regular sex. Really what we are doing is cultivating this energy. And for men it is a little bit different because everybody has heard of multiple orgasm for women but this idea for men is quite different. And how do we distill these two concepts of orgasm and ejaculation? How do they separate? Because the goal is how not to ejaculate but to help your body to transform and utilize this energy, for a deeper purpose, for whatever you want to use it for. Because sexual energy is just pure energy. So you could use it for creativity or connection with your partner or deepening your meditative practice.

Tami Simon: You know, I think that sometimes when people first hear about Taoist sexual secrets for men, the idea that they are not going to ejaculate, some idea that the ejaculation is a loss of some kind.

Lee Holden: Right. And that is not the goal to think that way. It is to be able to regulate and use sexual energy purposefully as opposed to just having it be one mode. So you’d have to find your own natural rhythm, because the goal isn’t to not ejaculate. It is defined…a rhythm. It is to be able to choose when to and when to strengthen your body, choose when to make it a deeper lasting orgasmic feeling or just a surrendering into the orgasmic feeling. So there is more choice.

Tami Simon: Now traditionally in Taoist sexual secrets, I can’t imagine there was much discussion given to same sex couples. It probably just wasn’t addressed much. I don’t know.

Lee Holden: I think it somewhat was because a lot of these texts were written in the emperor’s castles and then he would have 1,000 concubine or something like that, and what would these women do?

Rachel Abrams: What would they do all day?

Lee Holden: Without…you know, it took them a while to get to…you know. So there was some talk of energy together and same sex couples in terms of yin and yang. So they said that it had to be balanced in a different way. Because women are two yin and men are two yang. And so if you have fire and fire, say, for two men, there needs to be ways to pull in some yin energy as well. Which there usually is. Usually one person has more yin and one person has more yang, and same with women.

Rachel Abrams: Or they switch. You know. Both have balanced yin and yang.

Lee Holden: There are some techniques in Chi Gung to cultivate the piece that maybe was not…that was missing. But there was also that for same sex couples. There is always energy that is not balanced that you need to work with in yourself or to get from a practice.

S: I mean, it seems like probably one of the biggest things couples have a problem with, at least a lot of couples, is some kind of imbalance or mismatch of some kind, even if it is just as simple as, you know, he wants to have sex tonight and I don’t. Or, I mean, I have heard from a lot of women that there is an imbalance in terms of how often their sexual partner wants to have sex. He wants to have sex three times a day or something like that…

Lee Holden: And this is extremely helpful for that…

Tami Simon: So how does?

Lee Holden: So now instead of having to project that and get that energy from your partner you can do a self-cultivation where you are using that sexual energy within yourself so it doesn’t feel like an urge, like some uncontrollable urge or this itch that needs to be scratched by somebody else. You can really work with that energy within yourself so that it is balanced and maintained and actually contained within you so that you are not feeling. For men, what happens if your partner doesn’t want to have sex there is an emotional reaction that happens where you start to maybe feel like, well fine then. You don’t want to do that, then I am not going to do this. Where that energy…now it is much more patient. It is not that you have to have it then, you can be patient because you know that this energy can be cultivated within you and then when it is shared it is this deeper, fulfilling experience.

Tami Simon: So what you are saying is that self-cultivation will be satisfying enough to a man that they would be able to say, you know, I think I will go do my self-cultivation exercises instead of pawing all over you, when you are not in the mood. You really believe that?

Lee Holden: It actually works. It works very well. And always there is a dialogue with your partner, you know, and maybe it is that you do some self-cultivation together but you are not having sex. Maybe you meditate or share energy together. Maybe there is some exchange.

Rachel Abrams: Or you hold your partner while they self-cultivate.

Tami Simon: Self-cultivate. I mean, it is not the same word as masturbation. It is obviously a different word.

A: We use it on purpose because we think the practice is actually good for you. That you are actually cultivating your energy. And when you call it something that has a derogatory interpretation, people feel bad about it and then are less likely to do it. Or they do it with the emotion of guilt. Not so great. There is nothing wrong with pleasuring oneself. As a matter of fact, it is essential, because it gives you the freedom of being sexual when you want to. And that is essential in relationship.

And I also talk about for couples different ways to be with each other. So it is one thing to say, I don’t feel like sex, I don’t want to have sex, and go do your thing. Right? That is one level. But you can also have that person in there and say…have respect for the person that they are attracted to you. I mean, what a gift! Thank you for that, I am not really interested but why don’t I hold you while you self-cultivate or while you pleasure yourself or why don’t I help if I am up for that. You know, there are different levels as which you can stay connected and you can stay supportive and have sexual energy be part of the relationship without actually having sex with each other.

Tami Simon: Now, the program that Sounds True has created with you, Taoist Sexual Secrets, seems like first of all these aren’t really secrets anymore. But why were they ever secrets?

Lee Holden: Well one reason that they were secrets is because they were empowering, you know, say, for example, in spiritual tradition. All spiritual traditions or religions have some ideas around sexuality whether it’s a sin and you just suppress it, or you are celibate. To the Taoists being celibate if you don’t use that energy, that energy is going to manifest in different ways. They say that sexual energy, if you don’t circulate it and move it, express it, it is like holding ping pong balls under water. It is just going to shoot out in different directions. We call those chi deviations. And we can see that sometimes in the problems with some of our religious teachings, which is that if you suppress it it will come out in strange ways that aren’t healthy.

So to the Taoists, you know, you want to bring in all aspects of life into a spiritual practice. And sexuality was a big one. And to the Taoists if you wanna be celibate, why not have relationships, intimate relationships, but cultivate that energy instead of just squandering it in sexually harmful ways.

Tami Simon: Well so many traditional religions put sex outside. As you are saying, celibacy or a monastic life. And the Taoists didn’t—but yet they still…it was secret. That’s my…so why?

Lee Holden: Because it is empowering. And if you are empowered you don’t have to listen to the authorities.

Tami Simon: Right. So at the time, how many thousands of years ago, this would have been, you know, created trouble in the social structure…

Lee Holden: Right.

Tami Simon:…but now we are in a time where…

Lee Holden: …it is more open.

Tami Simon: Yeah. We need these things not to be secrets. I mean, there is no reason.

Lee Holden: Exactly. And Mantak Chia is great. He brought out these secret teachings. They were secret for reasons that…they empowered people to be their own sort of master or their own connection to the universe. They also empowered, let’s say in the martial arts tradition, people who knew these practices became much more powerful physically. They were able to channel this energy and become better at their martial arts practice. So they were empowering to people in whatever way they wanted to. And because of that power they were kept secret, because people weren’t responsible for their power or they didn’t want to empower people so that they wouldn’t listen to their rules or dogmas or whatnot. So that was part of the reason.

And a lot of times the greatest secrets are within us and we are always looking externally so that part of the secret is instead of looking for all your answers externally as the happiness you want to get, the secret is to reverse that and find the secrets, the most precious gifts are our own sexual energy and our own loving compassionate energy and how they balance within us. So in a sense the secret is the most obvious thing. A lot of times secrets are…they are the most obvious or present thing and that is within.

Tami Simon: So Mantak Chia, who is someone that you both studied with and learned these techniques from, he was really a pioneer and maybe even a sense a maverick to take these secret teachings and bring them out.

Lee Holden: Yeah. He was…you know, a lot of times he was…you know, other teachers would be like I can’t believe you are writing these in a book and giving them away to Westerners. I mean, they weren’t even published in China. They were still withheld and you have to study with a teacher for a long time before he would impart these knowledge. But it is a really different time, especially in the West where information is so available and so present.

Tami Simon: Did he say why he felt he had to bring out this…

Lee Holden: That was his reason. He just felt compelled to…they were so powerful and he really wanted to empower people. They worked so well for him. And he couldn’t understand why they weren’t available to everybody.

Tami Simon: Well of course these teachings are landing at a time in our culture when there is so much incredible confusion around sex and dysfunction of all kinds and pharmaceutical industries and we could go on and on and on. And what I am curious about is for both of you, what do you see as your vision of a healthy sexual America. I mean, you have children; you are educators in the field. What is your vision of what it would look like if we were healthy? What would be different?

Lee Holden: Yeah.

Rachel Abrams: I would really want that each human being was empowered and educated about their own body and its possibilities in whatever tradition. I mean, it would be lovely if they learned the Taoist tradition, but there are lots of wonderful traditions which take sexuality out of what’s forbidden and considered threatening and into how it is a fabulous gift. And you own it. And again, I will say, developing integrity around your sexual energy is so powerful, because whatever your intention is in the world, you know, and mine is to heal our planet and heal people so that we can all, you know, create a planet that we would rather live on, a more peaceful and prosperous place. And if you are containing this powerful energy within you and it is in alignment with your vision, there is nothing we are not capable of. The power of that intention invested with that energy is amazing.

And also I think, you know, we’ve talked about how often people learn through pain or they learn through poor choices or bad experiences. I think you can learn through pleasure. I think your body is made for this. It is what your body was created for. And if people live in that manifest world there is going to be a lot more joy and a lot more patience and a lot less caring about things that don’t matter, like shopping, accumulating material goods, taking advantage of people.

Lee Holden: You know, I think for me it is really basic that it is empowering for yourself and how we can integrate, because on a bigger picture if we don’t know how to use our sexual energy, we are not integrated within ourselves. And to the Taoists they say sexual energy is the energy that keeps us connected. So if we are not managing that and we don’t feel connected to it within ourselves we don’t feel connected to each other and we don’t feel connected to our environment, so we are always about taking what I need as opposed to finding it within and sharing those gifts and feeling a sense of oneness or connection with our environment and with each other.

So to really feel empowered within, to create positive, loving, nurturing passionate relationships, and then on a bigger scale, to feel that energy as a connection to nature and the universe. I think that is the big vision of it.

Tami Simon: You know, it is interesting, you have used this word integrity, Rachel, a couple of times, and you talked about integrating the energy. And I think that for a lot of people their sexual life is very private and it is very hidden. It is hidden from them, let alone hidden from a conversation they would have. And I am curious what you think about that. Do you see a time when our sexuality would not be quite so subterranean in our lives? It would be more like talking about our physical health.

Rachel Abrams: Well, I hope so. Because I think when you hide things you give them power. And then there is power you can’t control. And if you look at where we are today compared to fifty years ago, gosh, we’ve come a long way. Some of what is happening around sexuality in this culture I am not so crazy about. It is being exploited. But at least we are having this conversation. This would never have happened fifty years ago. So I think we are moving in that direction, and I think the conversation will come more into the public arena with less fear.

Lee Holden: it just seems to be such a dichotomy too because there is so much let’s say pornography and sexuality that is present and available but it is not infused with this integration kind of concept that we are talking about where it is empowering. It becomes disempowering and it is not connected to something that is higher consciousness. So if we can bring all this fascination that we have with it…it is weird, it is like all out there but it is all subterranean like you said, and there needs to be some bridges constructed where we can feel that it is integrated within our bodies and our emotional health and also some sense of connection to something that is bigger or higher or spiritual.

Tami Simon: So I want to just take a couple of the potentially subterranean things that might be happening for a listener. Like I can imagine a woman who might be listening, to start off with, who might say, you know, gosh, I’ve never even had an orgasm. And it is great that you guys are talking about the fabulous sex you have in your marriages and you know the valleys that go on forever. I’ve never even hit a peak let alone peak to valley, peak to valley. And so this conversation, you know, I am feeling left out and shut down. How do I…where is my entry point into what you are talking about.

Rachel Abrams: Right. So the entry point is sexual energy. And the truth is you can do this practice with great joy and never have an orgasm. It is not necessary. The practice uses sexual energy. Sexual energy happens to us all day long as we walk around. And most of the women I work with are in that situation. So I also do a lot of education, in the books that I write, in the CD series we’ve created, the program we’ve created for Sounds True, on helping women get to know their bodies, number one, in a more intimate way that I am sure you got in sex ed. Because there are certain things that you have to know for things to go well. And then also addressing a lot of the blocks that women have that keep them from their sexual fire. So the place that this practice plays…

Tami Simon: Can you say what some of those might be? The blocks.

Rachel Abrams: Sure. So there are drugs, there are hormonal states, menopause, nursing are classic ones. There are lots of medications that get in the way. Chronic illnesses are an issue. And I would say, besides those kinds of physiological things, the more common things are I am too busy and I don’t take care of myself. I am caring for kids and I am working and I am traveling and I don’t get enough sleep and I drink a lot of coffee and I am living a life in which I am not getting fed from my environment. I am not getting chi from the air and the earth and the beauty and nutrition and water and exercise around me. And when that is the case, your chi will be depleted and your sexual energy. So for a lot of women the key is unlocking what it is in their lives, and it doesn’t have to be huge. You know, it sounds like I am talking about a massive transformation but I am really not. The shifts can be subtle. Like, I decide once a week I am going to a belly dancing class. Could be anything. Sometimes that means that I am nurturing this aspect of myself that loves life. Because sexual energy is not just about sex; it is about passion for life in general. It is what we feel when we drive up to the Rocky Mountains like you have here and go, oh, how beautiful! Right? Some of that if that appreciation of beauty, of being saturated with sensual pleasure, that is sexual energy. And that is available to everybody.

So it is about accessing that on a regular basis. And I think the orgasm can follow. But it really follows the sexual energy. That is the key.

Tami Simon: And Lee, what about for men. I mean, I don’t know all kinds of erectile dysfunctions…

Lee Holden: Absolutely, yeah. Low energy or even extreme energy where they just feel controlled by their energy or their sexuality or their desires for…So I think one it is about taking control and empowering yourself. And then for low energy and fatigue and for men who are getting older and are like where did my sexual energy go? Stress and working to hard and being too busy are a big depletion of that sexual energy.

So these practices, even the simple ones like breathing exercises and taking time to release tensions and blockages that manifest in your body from stress, all of a sudden your energy comes back. So there are some simple things to do just for…the simple visualizations, the breathing exercises, some of the chi massage techniques that release the stagnant areas in your body or the tightness and get that chi to flow again. And all of a sudden…your body wants to be healthy and balanced. And if you give it a little encouragement in the right way all of a sudden things start working really, really well.

Tami Simon: So you know, our program is called Insights at the Edge and the idea is to talk to people about what their current edge might be, both in their work and their personal life. And I have to say that having this conversation with you brings up my edge around my own yet to be discovered vistas of sexual pleasure and potential. But I am curious for you, you’ve been teaching and exploring sexuality for so long, both of you, do you still have an edge in terms of your own sexual fulfillment? Like you could imagine going even further? Is it like that? Or have you reached total fulfillment?

Lee Holden: Well I think this practice, you know, I describe it like a journey. You just never get there. It just always, oh, there is the next peak and then I would like to go back and visit that place again. Sometimes where you are in your life, there is always more to explore, there is always more to deepen. And that is the beauty of this practice. It is just so expansive. Sometimes I feel like I am just getting started. Like, ah, I have finally figured out that piece of this practice and how it relates to this other aspect. For me now I am really seeing the integration of the practice, as opposed to just the sex piece of it.

Tami Simon: Integration with?

Lee Holden: The integration where the energy, the sexual energy, is so integrated into everything, whether it’s work or creativity or inspiration or spirituality. For me the big one is that spiritual connection. How do we transform that energy into shen or spirit, that illumination that is so present? How do you use this as a meditative practice? Because if that is present, that ecstatic sexual energy is present in meditation, it just becomes so much more enjoyable. And for me, I just want to meditate. It is not like something you have to do. There are so many doorways that I feel like I still haven’t explored because it is just very expansive.

Tami Simon: Is there a moment for you where you would say sexual energy and what it feels like as sexual energy has become what you would call spiritual energy? What is the transition?

Lee Holden: What is the sensation, or…?

Tami Simon: Yeah. What does it feel like? And you are saying and now it is spiritual energy; it is not sexual energy. Is it because you are feeling it in a different part of your expanded being.

Lee Holden: yeah, a different place in your body, maybe. Maybe it is in your head and maybe there is this kind of lightness. Or where…for me it feels like your body dissolves and expands and all of a sudden you feel this connection to nature, for example. Or you just feel that vibrance all around you. You feel a oneness with people. You see their…or from their perspective. You don’t feel disconnected. I guess that is how I would describe it.</p/

Rachel Abrams: The boundaries dissolve. And people describe this in deep meditation. I’ve seen it there too. But when it happens for me using the sexual energy, it is just, it is more, it is bigger and brighter, it is more like the sun. And I do. I feel in alignment with everything, the entire universe we live in. And this intense sense of belonging and peace also.

Tami Simon: So when you feel this energy in your body and you call it sexual energy, it is more limited to your erogenous zones and it is kind of in your body… I am just trying to understand, when you decide to call it spiritual energy and not sexual energy. I mean, I know we are describing kind of one energy, but yet…

Lee Holden: Sexual energy would maybe be the most dense energy because it is the most physical. And as it distills, for example, or like steam rising off a lake, that kind of feeling, where it just starts to expand into chi or chi is a little bit more elusive. It just starts to expand and move through your body, then it becomes less erotic, about sexual pleasure, but more about a bigger pleasure, which is feeling connected in a different way.

I would say the first, as it gets dense, it is about pleasing yourself. And then as it starts to expand it is about pleasing and creating pleasurable experience with your partner. And then it starts to expand about feeling connected in that relationship with nature and the divine. So it kind of…and then that can come back down into feeling more about your pleasure, your partner’s pleasure, and it can just be in this cycle. If you are in that connected space. Or if you are cultivating some sexual energy and you just sit down and do your meditation, it is infused; it has more power behind it. That is what it feels like for me. Everything is a little bit more powerful because of the practice.

Tami Simon: And Rachel, your edge?

Rachel Abrams: My edge. Well I feel like there is a lot of room for expansion in terms of sexual exploration. I am excited about that. We were actually talking about some practices that I don’t know and that I really want to learn and do more of. And I wouldn’t necessarily call that my edge. For me my edge is more about bringing some of the wisdom of what we do out into the world. And what does that look like? And being able to hold onto a sense of rightness and integrity while doing it, no matter what comes back at ya. And really being willing to be an instrument in the world for the transformation that needs to happen. That is more my edge right now.

Tami Simon: Well, you know, it is interesting talking to you two because it seems so obvious and in a way maybe in fifty or a hundred years maybe we will look back at this and it will be a different world. But it seems so obvious that people would know these kinds of techniques and practices and have the kind of fulfillment that you are talking about and, do you know what I am saying?

LH: That is why it is secret, because it is so obvious.

Tami Simon: That must be it.

LH: It is right there. Everybody has sexual energy and because it is, you know, hidden, then those secrets get lost. Because we don’t know ourselves, and it is about knowing the energy that we have already. I mean, everybody has that capacity, but are we tapping in to our potential or not?

Tami Simon: Great. Well, thank you both.

Rachel Abrams & Lee Holden: Thank you.

Lee Holden: Wonderful.

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