Tami Simon: Welcome to Insights at the Edge, produced by Sounds True. My name is Tami Simon, I’m the founder of Sounds True, and I’d love to take a moment to introduce you to the new Sounds True Foundation. The Sounds True Foundation is dedicated to creating a wiser and kinder world by making transformational education widely available. We want everyone to have access to transformational tools such as mindfulness, emotional awareness, and self-compassion, regardless of financial, social, or physical challenges. The Sounds True Foundation is a nonprofit dedicated to providing these transformational tools to communities in need, including at risk youth, prisoners, veterans, and those in developing countries. If you’d like to learn more or feel inspired to become a supporter, please visit soundstruefoundation.org.
You’re listening to Insights at the Edge. Today, my guest is Jennifer Freed. Jennifer Freed is a psychotherapist, mediator, and author. Her work has been featured in USA Today, the New York Times, Forbes, and Good Morning America. She’s an internationally certified psychological astrologer and has consulted thousands of worldwide clients. With Sounds True, Jennifer Freed has a new book; it’s called Use Your Planets Wisely: Master Your Ultimate Cosmic Potential with Psychological Astrology.
In this episode of Insights at the Edge, Jennifer and I spoke about some of the unique aspects of her approach to psychological astrology, and she used my chart as an example to illustrate her points. And because part of what’s in my chart is that I’d like to drill down and grill others, I made her talk about her chart as well. And we looked at our collective chart for 2020 and Jennifer showed us a range of possibilities, interesting and challenging. Here’s my conversation with Jennifer Freed:
In our conversation, Jennifer, I want to try to underscore and highlight some of the things that are unique about how you approach astrology because in reading your new book, Use Your Planets Wisely, you introduced a few ideas and approaches to astrology that I had never seen introduced anywhere before. So, that’s my goal here. What do you think?
Jennifer Freed: I think that’s great.
TS: OK. So, let’s begin with this notion of psychological astrology, which is the type of astrology that you practice and teach. What is psychological astrology?
JF: Well, it’s the combination of understanding what makes people tick through my 35 years of training as a psychotherapist and a psychological thinker, combined with my 35 years of training as an astrologer, which is much more about interpreting someone’s cosmic DNA, if you will. So psychology really looks at much more the nurture factor—what happened, what didn’t happen, and how do we make sense of that; and astrology looks at your life from birth and says, here are the potentials and the possibilities, and also the possible limitations or obstructions, and how can we use both these knowledge bases to help you become the fullest expression of yourself you can be?
TS: Now the part of your book, Use Your Planets Wisely, that I had never seen before, that I thought was really stunning, was how you introduce this idea that we can understand three levels at which an energy is expressing itself in one of the signs in our chart. Now I want you to unpack this for our listeners, these three levels and how you came up with this system.
JF: Thank you for asking that because as I was training as an astrologer in my 20s, I kept reading book after book that was a recipe formula to study astrology and understand the planets and certain signs. And I was often frustrated because it wasn’t a great description of the different skill levels people can go with their chart; it was very formulaic and very reductive. So, I came up with—and I must say too because the way this work comes to me is much more as a channel, so I want to say I came up with this through divine assistance because it came through me—that there needed to be much more description about how it really lives in us to have a planet and a certain sign.
So, for example, if your Sun is in Leo, as your Sun sign is, there’s going to be a primitive expression of that planet in that sign, which means we all regress and go to a very unskillful place at times. But then if we move into what I call the adaptive level of a Sun in Leo, then we come into more functionality, and we’re using the energies wisely, and we have better results. And then all of us, I hope, listening to this show, are interested in evolving. So the evolving level is where we can aspire to and in moments achieve, where we’ve gone beyond the limitations of the ego and gone into service in terms of a Sun in Leo. And we don’t live in that place. Hardly anyone ever lives in that place, but it’s a great thing to use as a benchmark for where we want to be.
TS: OK, now a couple things. One, I want to bring the listeners up to speed that before this conversation started, I did share with Jennifer my birth time and place. So, you’ve got my number, so to speak. I have shared it with you freely and you can refer to it as much as you want. Now, you mentioned, Jennifer, that you work as a channel in some sense. Tell me more what you mean by that and how do you use your own astrology to help you be a vessel for—I think it’s what you call divine muses to work through you?
JF: Yes. Well, number one, I am a very hard worker. So I have spent years and thousands—I’d probably say 30,000 hours studying astrology: the mathematics of it, and the symbology of it, and then the psychology of it. So, there’s a great foundation for me and I have many mentors. I don’t in any way think that I’m above others and so I practice from a place of humility in terms of I’m learning this and we’re all learners here, so let’s just posit that first.
Then once I’ve done the homework and I look at a chart, or when I do my writing about astrology, I do a meditation asking for divine assistance every single day. I’m very disciplined—I get up and I meditate, and I write some words about divine guidance and thankfulness. And from that place, I let go of myself as Jennifer, as I would know it, and see what comes through. And that’s pretty much how I do the readings and also how I write. And luckily for me, it’s always a fountain that never stops.
TS: OK. So let’s go into these three levels because, as I mentioned, I find it so interesting. And I think we all know inside of ourselves that we can express ourselves [in a] vulgar, crude, there’s the worst version of ourselves, if you will, and then there’s the better version of ourselves that we aspire to. So let’s go back to this Sun in Leo, I don’t know why Sun in Leo made me want to think about myself one more time—just joking. But tell me what is it like when it’s primitive? What’s it like when it’s adaptive? What’s it like when it’s evolving?
JF: OK, great. So let me say to you and the listeners because this will be about you now, but everybody listening, the primitive level comes from when we are traumatized and have unprocessed pain, or we’re reactive to something in the moment that’s very difficult and we haven’t mastered or managed our emotions.
So, the primitive level for a Sun sign in Leo, is a very huge emphasis on narcissistic attention. It’s all about me, it’s what I need, I need you to acknowledge me, to see me, and there is no other. When Leo is at its primitive level in the Sun sign, the self has become consumed with its own light and it has no awareness of others’ needs or wants because it’s so needy for its own affirmation. So that would be primitive, OK? So let’s say when you’re at your worst, Tami, or anybody with Sun in Leo is at their worst—I have a daughter with that as well— there just becomes this extraordinary emphasis on me and what I need and want, and who isn’t recognizing me and seeing me?
Now, when you’re in your adaptive, Sun in Leo, the emphasis is on bringing your beautiful heart-centeredness to having other people shine. So, for example, this entire podcast you’ve created is in adaptive Sun in Leo because you’re always featuring the best of other people and letting your heart and your wisdom, and your talent promote others. So when the Sun in Leo is adaptive, it’s very focused on bringing out the best and heartfulness of others through the generosity of self.
Now, when you are in your evolving—and again, evolving is where we’re seeking but we rarely stay—the only reason a Sun in Leo is here is to shine the light on other people’s greatness. The only reason the Sun in Leo is here is to have everyone in their presence feel unconditional love. And that’s a very high standard. So when I’m talking about evolving, wouldn’t that be great, Tami, that every time you walked into the room, everyone felt elevated and more loved in your presence?
TS: [Yes.] Now when you do a reading for someone, can you tell whether or not one of their planets in that sign is in a primitive, adaptive, or evolving place the majority of the time, or do you just know that they have that range of expression, that’s all you can really see when you see their chart?
JF: When I see their chart—and I do a lot of work internationally over the phone, so I don’t even see the people necessarily—I can see that everyone has the potential to be skillful or unskillful and move through these levels. When I talk with somebody, you can pretty quickly start to determine the moral vector in which they’re living. In other words, how are they applying this planet and this sign? And a lot of our suffering—all of our suffering, I would say, in our personal and interpersonal lives—comes from us not living our highest skill set emotionally, and psychologically, and spiritually.
TS: OK. Now, another one of the unique aspects that you bring to astrology is social-emotional practices. Share with our listeners what do you mean by social-emotional practices, and how does that relate to someone’s astrology chart?
JF: Well, it relates to our life. So I have spent the last 20 years as a specialist in social and emotional education. My partner and I cofounded a nonprofit called Aha, and we have 25 employees. I’m no longer the executive director, somebody just took that spot and I’ve stayed on as the chief content officer. But we have spent our life helping teenagers and families have social and emotional intelligence. And what that basically means is we teach people how to have healthy relationships, how to manage their emotions, how to have resilience, how to delay gratification, how to celebrate diversity, how to have responsible decision-making.
So, this isn’t necessarily astrology adjacent, it’s just the way I practice and which makes it quite unique because when people are working with me, I’m also very interested not just in their self-awareness, but their social awareness and how they are interacting with others, and what they’re doing in their community to either make it better or not.
TS: Would you say it’s fair that if we’re going to move out of the primitive expression, that that’s where these social-emotional capacities come in, that’s what helps us move into an adaptive and evolving way of being?
JF: Completely. Let me use myself as an example. At our house currently, we needed to put in a new water line because our well was running dry. And we live in a neighborhood with five other neighbors and one of our neighbors has, over time, been a difficult neighbor. And right now this neighbor is going ballistic over the trench work with the water line. And they are unskillful in their primitive expression and so they keep attacking, and sending awful texts, and being extremely negative. And it’s taking every part of me to manage my own emotions so that I walk the high road because that’s what I’m committed to. But if I didn’t have tons of social-emotional skills to manage my emotions, and know how to reach out for help, and know how to process difficult feelings, and know how to work with conflict, I could get into a war with a neighbor right now, and how would that be helpful?
TS: What are some of the difficult placements of planets and certain signs that make it more likely that someone’s going to have social-emotional challenges?
JF: That’s a great question. Luckily for all your life listeners, there is no planet in any sign that predetermines whether or not it’s going to be difficult to bring it into a functional level. Every single planet and every single sign has the exact same potential to make it a magnificent use of your energy, or to be quite difficult. So, I’m very optimistic with people because I don’t see any chart or any placement as inherently bad or good, I just don’t.
TS: One of the things I read in your book, Use Your Planets Wisely, is that you focus more on identifying people’s strengths in their chart, than seeing areas of pathology. And I thought, “That’s interesting, I wonder why Jennifer doesn’t just talk about both. Like, ‘Here’s your strengths, but here’s where, God, this is going to be tough. This is going to be hard.'”
JF: Yes, I think that we’ve learned through positive psychology that strength-based interventions are more successful. We are not problems to be solved. So, if we’re constantly hitting the nail on what’s wrong with us, we generally feel demotivated and we feel very apathetic. If we highlight the strengths that we have and we use those strengths to actually transform the places in our lives that are difficult, that’s a much better approach. I’m not at all avoidant of people’s difficulties; that’s the psychological part, I’ve been spending my life listening to people that have pain and trauma. In fact, I’m also a nationally certified EMDR consultant, which means that I’ve been training for my life in trauma work. So, when people come to see me, I don’t really need to tell them where their problems are, they will tell me.
TS: Do you see trauma in a chart? Can you see that?
JF: Yes. Yes.
TS: How do you see that?
JF: Yes you can. Well, there are certain aspects, and this is getting quite advanced, where you see that people have gone through deep suffering in this lifetime. And the way I would present that is, “Oh, it looks like you’ve had a very difficult relationship with the mother, causing you a great deal of concern and pain over this lifetime. What have you learned about that?”
TS: OK, so when a chart is printed out, put in front of you, maybe you’re doing a reading for someone from a distance, what are the first things that you key in on?
JF: Well, the very first things I’m always looking at is the Sun sign, the Moon sign, the Ascendant, and what’s called the Aspects to the moon and the sun, because the moon in someone’s chart is the most personal experience of their innermost reality and their innermost needs. So I will always be looking at, wow, how are they emotionally built, and how are they emotionally regulating, and how can I assist them in having more self-compassion and working with their emotions in a competent way?
TS: OK, let’s go ahead and do it, Jennifer. Give it to me: the Sun, the Moon, the Ascendants, and the Aspects, what do we have? What do we have here?
JF: OK. Well, your Sun is beautifully placed in Leo and it’s in, according to your birth time, the eighth house, which is about intense transformative powers within your identity. Your real issue this lifetime in terms of strength and also complexity is your Moon sign. Your Moon sign is in Virgo, and it’s conjoined Pluto and Uranus and opposite Chiron and Jupiter. Now let me say in lay women’s language what that means: it means in this lifetime you came in with an enormous mother complex. And out of that mother complex, which means a lot of issues around mothering and nurturing, and it’s in the house of higher wisdom and knowledge, it spurred you on to really try to figure out the meaning of life, and be a very great emotional communicator and thinker around how to provide more meaning to other people.
But all of it, according to your chart—this is just what I’m looking at—comes from a deep, deep, severed belonging from an early age that’s propelled you to make meaning for yourself and others at a grand level.
TS: Severed belonging from an early age, it’s true. It’s true.
JF: Well, and see what’s beautiful, because you are self-aware and you have used your suffering on behalf of yourself and others, is that when I see that in a chart—and there’s no bad or good; see, I’m not looking at this and going “So, that’s a bad lifetime.” Because I think of it like this: each of us came in with a soul lesson plan, so it’s perfect for each of us. It doesn’t mean that I ever minimize what that must have felt like for you, but I also see it as your badge of honor that you have chosen this path and you’ve done it so beautifully.
TS: Now, let’s talk to the person whose level of familiarity with astrology is, I look up my Sun sign. And here you are, you’re looking at a printout, and it’s easy for anyone to get a printout if they know the birth time and the birthplace, you’re looking at houses, you’re looking at these 10 different planets, you also mentioned Chiron—just orient them to what you see when you look at a chart.
JF: OK, great. So when I print out a chart, it’s based on the birth time, the place of birth, and the date of birth. And then that will give me a picture of the heaven that the moment you were born, from the place you were born. And each planet is in a different sign, or sometimes you’re in the same sign, and they’re in a mathematical relationship to each other, a geometric relationship to each other, that then defines for me, and anyone that really has learned astrology, what the inner committee is looking like, how it’s assembled. So I’m looking at all of that together. And let me be clear, it takes a solid year of intense training to actually even have a beginner’s reading of a chart. It took me 10 years to have any sense of real competence with the kind of work that I do.
So when I’m looking at your chart right now, Tami, or anyone’s chart I’m looking at, it’s a huge combination of influences because you’re not only looking at the 10 planets and Chiron and what time they’re in, but what is their relationship to one another because that is the snapshot of the psyche inside the person you’re talking to.
TS: And for people who have never heard of Chiron, that’s an asteroid, why do you include that in the chart in your reading?
JF: Because Chiron was discovered in the 70s and it is the asteroid that represents the wounded healer. And this advent or re-popularization of all these alternative therapies coincides with the discovery of Chiron, because the myth of Chiron is about this extraordinary teacher who gets this fatal wound, but because he’s also half-animal, half-immortal, he cannot heal the wound. So he becomes this prolific, learned medicine man trying in every way possible to gather information on how to help himself and therefore ends up healing all these other people.
So Chiron for me has turned out to be a very relevant piece of everyone’s chart because within each of us, there is what I call the wounded healer, the place in us that carries a lifelong wound that will never be completely healed but where there is a wound, the light can enter, our humility can enter, our need of other people can happen.
TS: OK. Now before we keep talking about me, let’s talk about you for a moment. Where’s your Chiron in your chart? And what does that tell us about you as a wounded healer?
JF: [Laughs] Well, my Chiron is in the sign of Aquarius, and it’s in the second house. And basically, I was one of those people that grew up as the one—Aquarius Chiron means you don’t feel like you fit in, you’re not part of the crowd, you’re not in step with other people. And basically since zero, I’ve just felt like the weirdo, the outsider, I was into astrology before it ever became popular, I was in a same-sex relationship with a woman even though I don’t define myself as a lesbian. It’s like I just don’t fit any categories, and that’s part of my path is that I am not going to belong in any conventional group. And I have actually found that to be quite helpful to understand about myself and my non-conforming wounded nature, has helped me be extraordinarily gifted at helping people that don’t feel like they fit in.
TS: And where’s my Chiron placed? She says, curiously.
JF: Your Chiron is placed in Pisces, which has much more to do with feeling the woundedness of the world in the bodhisattva placement. It has much more to do with a kind of unbearable compassion you feel toward the planet and also a way in which that level of suffering can’t be ever healed in you but certainly the work you’re doing is constantly trying to add in to make it better.
TS: Now, in Use Your Planets Wisely, towards the beginning of the book, you have a section where you welcome skeptics. And so at this moment in our conversation, I want to make sure that we’re welcoming people who are probably not wholly skeptical, or they wouldn’t have even gotten this far, but they might be partially skeptical. And they might be wondering how much of this is, “God, I can kind of believe almost anything somebody says about me, I can look at an ink blot and it looks like it’s saying something important about me.” What would you say to that person who’s still has a big question mark in their mind about the validity of Western astrology?
JF: Well, number one, I come from a skeptical background. I was raised New York Jewish girl in a highly intellectual, completely cynical family. So, I have a very strong, good relationship with skepticism. And so I think the only way I’ve ever confronted my own skepticism is by having a legitimate experience of something before I rule it out. So I would say, always maintain a cautious reserve about any information that feels like hocus pocus. And then if you’re open, you would have hopefully a very good psychological astrology reading, and then make your decision—informed decision making.
TS: I think part of what happens is that—I’ll speak from my own experience, I’ve had some pretty mediocre readings, and that hasn’t given me a lot of confidence in astrology. And I wonder, what do you think makes someone a good astrologer, a reliable astrologer?
JF: I think you’ve really raised an important point because I would say 20 percent of my readings is cleaning up other bad astrology readings. I think, in any profession— and you know this, you’ve been around, there are 10 to 20 percent of practitioners that are stellar. Well how do you ever know that about any profession? And I think first you look at, where did they study, what’s their background, and interviewing people before you work with them. So, for example, if you’re going to commit to a psychological astrologer, read what they’ve written, get a sense of their pedigree. And the most important qualification for me in going to an astrologer is, do they do their own personal growth work, or are they using this as a mantle of superiority and all-knowing that’s actually damaging for people?
TS: How would somebody know that? How could you tell if an astrologer was doing their own growth work or not?
JF: Well, here’s my litmus test for all false prophets. Can you criticize them and they accept the criticism with interest and curiosity? So, for example, if I say something to someone in a reading, I don’t say it, [as if] this is a fact; “This is what it shows,” I’ll say. If they say to me, “That’s wrong,” I say, “Then that’s wrong. You’re the expert on you, this is just what’s being revealed here, but you know better than I do.” So for me, it’s been a very easy test because people with narcissistic grandiosity that do this kind of work—and it’s not just astrology, psychics, whatever—if they cannot face any type of naysaying or criticism, then it’s probably their ego that has decided to do this profession.
TS: Now I want to pick up one thread that you said. You talked about how when you do a reading, you see what someone’s “inner committee” is. This is this phrase that you used, and you also introduced this in Use Your Planets Wisely, that we each have an inner committee. What happens when we have all of our representatives, our archetypal representatives there, there’s all the different ways that the planets appear in the heavens at the moment of our birth, and these committee members have different things to say about our situation? And perhaps they really disagree with each other, there are different energies on the committee? How do we work with such an inner committee?
JF: Welcome to your life and my life. I mean, I’m laughing because that’s the way it is, haven’t you noticed?
TS: Yes, I have.
JF: Yes! It’s like, we go through our day, both you and I have committees that disagree with each other. I have to do a lot of work hosting different conversations and coming from a still, quiet place of being responsive to different influences inside of me. And ultimately, I have to make sense of those different viewpoints and make decisions. But in any given day, I’ve got at least two or three committee members saying, “What about this? No, do it like this.” And it’s very challenging to then have a coherent narrative for my life. And you’re the same.
TS: Can you give me an example from … let’s go back to you for a moment, Jennifer, I love talking about you. Let’s go back to you. Which committee members on your team often oppose each other?
JF: Well, here’s the exact ones I’ve had trouble with my whole life, and they continue to be very vociferous in their disagreements. I have what’s called, Sun, Venus, and Aquarius in the second house. And that means that I really, I’m a highly community minded person, but I’m super into my relationships, like very identified with my partner, and who we are, and what we’re doing, and I want to be so close, and she’s everything to me, so that’s one part of me. Then have, in the 11th house, the house of community and group, Jupiter and Neptune, which means—and this is a fact—since I’ve been 18, I have led groups every single week of my life. I’m a huge group leader, I lead workshops, I lead groups, I run organizations. And often there’s a conflict between what the group wants and needs of me, and what my relationship wants and needs of me. And it’s a workout because I can’t do both at once.
So sometimes I err in the direction of serving the group, and sometimes I get caught up in my private, self-centered needs for just my relationship. And it’s very difficult. And I work on it and I work on it, and according to my chart, I’m not going to transcend this, but to the degree that I keep making it conscious, I’m not as horrible at it as I used to be.
TS: That’s very helpful. That’s a good example.
JF: And also, I have one more example for me and then we can go to you.
TS: OK.
JF: I have what I call—
TS: I don’t know if I want to know. No, I do want to know. I have to say, I’m a little nervous, but let’s keep talking about you.
JF: [Laughs] OK. OK. Well I have a Taurus Moon, which is the Moon in Taurus, is—the deepest need is security, emotional constancy, cuddling, and a lot of indulgence and sweet, and kind of like a real—if you would just think of it like a cuddly bear that wants to sit and just eat good food, that’s my Moon sign. Well that’s in real contradistinction to these other pieces I just told you. So what used to happen to me is I would go out in the world, do the group work, be with my partner, and then lo and behold, I would get sick because this body-sensual, needy part of me wasn’t getting fed.
So now I have to figure out, on a weekly basis, how do I attend to this very needy, sensual part of me with the part of me that’s worldly, with the part of me that’s focused on my partner. And I’ve gotten way better at it but I just did something three weeks ago where I made the wrong choice against my body’s needs and boom, sick. I have a very good feedback loop. So, I’m just saying, when you look into somebody’s charts, you see what these dilemmas are. And then if they’re willing and interested, you can coach them to just be more aware and more mindful of what choices they do have.
TS: OK, go ahead, tell me what my conflicts are. I mean, the tensions in my world.
JF: OK, well, the one that jumps out at me, Tami, is that you have Mars in Gemini, which means that the way you like to get things done is through a lot of conversation, and deliberation, and reflection, and contemplation. And that’s obviously why you’re doing what you’re doing, but it also means that it’s a high priority of yours, and at the worst, a forceful priority of yours to have the conversation because it’s squared by Jupiter and a loose square to your Moon, it means, at times, you can be overbearing to yourself or others in your need to drill down, and get into specifics, and talk about things.
TS: I often don’t get invited back to dinner parties.
JF: [Laughs] But just so you know, and this is just funny to tell you, I would adore you. We’d get along like gangbusters because all my friends, my dear friends have this Moon in Virgo thing. But anyway, my point is, this is your innate drive to have great meaning out of conversation, and get into the specifics, and really understand why people are thinking the way they’re thinking. But most people, and I’m going to tell you 99 percent of the people I’ve read for don’t have this interest at all. And they’re like, “Why are you bringing that up again Tami? Why do we have to walk this down the road again? Can’t you let sleeping dogs lie?” That kind of thing.
TS: Oh, yes. I mean, I remember a friend used to say, “You’re getting under my skin.” And I was like, “OK, that’s exactly the idea there.” Yes.
JF: Yes. So, as of course, you’ve gotten older, you’re self-aware, you start to read social cues. And this is the social-emotional intelligence part. You read the social cues and you’re seeing that people are backing away from you, or your partner’s getting worn down, like please, Tami, can’t we just go have dinner, or whatever. And because you’re sensitive, and you are, and you care about people, over time you’re going to learn to take a break, do some writing, read, do the inner work that the mind wants to do instead of working it out on others.
TS: Yes.
JF: And I’m sure you’re doing that. But that would be like if you were young Tami, that could have saved you some trouble.
TS: Sure, that’s true. Now, once again, I want to talk to that person who is with us in our conversation but also getting a little lost, perhaps over their head in some of the astrology speak. So they’re familiar with the idea of the planets and they can even go along with us that there’s an asteroid that was discovered that has an influence on us. But when you talk about looking at the chart, and you talk about the houses, they’re like, “Well, who come up with those houses? What are the houses? And I still don’t even really understand the signs and what established that there are these different signs. ” Can you explain that for the person still getting the language here?
JF: Yes. Now, again, this is what I teach and it takes lots of hours for people to understand this, but I’m going to give you a thumbnail sketch and hopefully it helps. All of these markers, the houses are sectors in the sky, the signs relate to seasons, all of these were established through years and years of empirical experience and observation. So, for example, Aries is the beginning of the Zodiac, and the constellation that was at the very start of spring in the sky was named after the [Greek] god Ares because the beginning of spring felt very much like the upsurge of this fiery, fiery energy: things growing and coming up through the dirt, and the force it takes to be a leader of growth. So they named that constellation Aries.
Then in the middle of spring, they looked up and they saw another constellation and they named it Taurus. This was thousands of years ago. And they named it Taurus because in the middle of spring, there seemed to be a relationship between the bull, Taurus, the sanguine contented, slow moving bulls, and the energies of spring; and so on. That’s how they named the signs and decided what they meant seasonally.
And then the places in the sky seemed to correspond with certain kinds of events. So the house of Aries seemed to have to do with this independent, autonomous, pushy kind of energy. The house that was named after Taurus had to do with the slow, more conserving earthly energy. And this is how it all developed over thousands of years. And you have to remember all of us, we didn’t have lights. Everybody was looking at the luminaries, everyone was studying the heavens because we’ve always been people looking for meaning. And all those natives used to have is the movement of the heavens to try to understand why they were here on Earth.
TS: I noticed the skeptic in me relaxes when you described the nature-based origins of astrology. I’m like, “Oh, that makes a lot of sense.” I relax a bit.
JF: Yes, and the skeptic in me relaxed a bit when I learned the history of astrology and understood. And the coolest thing, the image for me that really resonated, is there’s evidence that entire generations of families made markings on cave walls about the movement of the heavens to try to help all their ancestors and their line down the line to understand, what does all this mean? Why do these planets mean to move like this? And why do these certain occurrences happen when these certain planets are in this position?
TS: It makes me think of, it’s rare now, I think, for a lot of people to have a really good view of the night sky where you don’t have a lot of artificial light that is keeping you from seeing where all the stars and constellations are. And you know, how special it is when we get out into a wilderness environment where there isn’t a lot of artificial light. It’s interesting to think of what it would have been like if we were living like that all the time.
JF: Yes. And one of my teachers, Rick Tarnas, who’s brilliant and has written one of the best cultural astrology books ever called Cosmos and Psyche, he really talks about [how] the ancients saw this is an animated and chanted universe filled with meaning and messages. And it’s only since the Industrial Revolution and the darkening of our skies, that many of us lost the sense of magic about being part of stardust and creation. And for me, when I’m in that night sky camping or even where I live, I can see a lot of stars, you just go outside at night and it’s irrefutable that there’s something extremely exhilarating about being part of this universe.
TS: Now another part of Use Your Planets Wisely that I thought was really brilliant and pioneering Is that you created a nature-based symbol for each of the planets. And I’d love to know, first of all, what inspired you to do that? And then I thought it’d be interesting you could share some of them with us, give us a sense of this.
JF: OK, great. Well, first of all, what inspired it is I am an ardent feminist. And for those people that don’t know what that means today, it just means I want equality for all men and all women. I’m absolutely as interested in men’s sense of belonging as women, but we have a very tilted culture. And the Roman/Greek mythology related to the planet comes from a very patriarchal, sexist perspective. And I think it has a lot to offer us in terms of history. I would never not acknowledge it, and in the book, I do acknowledge it because it’s historical and it’s relevant. But for me, we are called at this time for a new mythology in order to have the kind of world where everyone has a sense of belonging and equality. And so my nature-based metaphors are inclusive. There is no gender, there is no sex, there is just nature at its expression of a planetary energy.
So, for example, Mercury historically has been Hermes, the trickster, the Roman god version. And then. for me, Mercury is the wind. So instead of it being this Roman god who ruled the underworld and above world with communications, I still think that’s a very helpful story; But now we have the wind, which is real communication, should be as free and as liberating as the wind. It should add new air and insight for all of us. So that’s one.
Venus, Aphrodite, is associated with this gorgeous, very materialistic goddess-and great, good to know. And she had all these kinds of relationships with men. Again, there was no possibility for her to be outside of that conventional male/female role-playing. And yet now I call it the garden because within the garden, there’s intense beauty, but again, not gendered, no sexual division. So do you want me to say more or is that enough?
TS: No, I mean, that’s a good couple of examples. Let’s connect the dots for people. How does understanding the nature-based symbol help us when we go to understand the influence of that planet in our chart and in our life?
JF: OK, great. So let’s take Venus. Venus represents our capacity to relate and attract. And if we think of ourselves like a garden, instead of a goddess, we can realize that all of our ability to relate and to attract is interdependent. We are not solo, we are not an object, we are interdependent subjects having an experience in this life to the degree I use my Venus wisely. I am a woman that is garnering great fulfilling relationships and using my powers of attractiveness to be a contributor, not just to gain personal attention.
TS: Now, one of the nature metaphors that surprised me was the one that you offered for Jupiter, the high mountain lake. I thought, huh. I mean, I think of the energy of Jupiter as being very expansive, and so I wasn’t quite sure how the high mountain lake related to that.
JF: Well, have you been to a really high mountain lake?
TS: Yes, I have.
JF: OK. So my experience as a high mountain lake is the water is pristine, the air is extraordinarily big and expansive, and there’s a stillness and also a clarity in those high mountain lakes you don’t find anywhere else. And when Jupiter—which is the planet of expansion, and growth, and abundance, and seeking wisdom—is thought of as a high mountain lake, I think it brings out the best of Jupiter’s tendency, which is instead of the hedonistic and indulgent expansive part, it’s much more about higher wisdom, climbing the great mountain, and having clarity, and having a sense of the great vista that one gets when you really seek wisdom.
TS: All right, Jennifer, here’s what I’d like to know. And first of all, tell me if you think the question is valid. I’m going to go ahead and ask it, which is we’re moving into 2020, and as a time, I think a lot of people feel a sense of accelerated instability over the past couple of years. From our collective astrology right now, what do you have to say about what’s happening as we enter 2020?
JF: I do want to take on that question because I really believe in free will. And we are presented in 2020 with one of the most difficult astrological combinations we’ve had in a thousand years. And I think it’s incumbent on you and I and all your—
TS: Oh, my, really? Really?
JF: Yes, I tell the truth. Here’s the deal, though. Wherever you see difficulty in an astrological configuration, you have the greatest potentials for growth. And so I am an optimist, and I’m so glad I’m talking to you and your listeners because the worst thing that any of us could do is dread. The most important thing all of us must do, and this is super important to the astrology, is take full responsibility for the condition that we’re all in and do our part. If every single person picked up their metaphoric shovel and did their part, we could transform the entire direction of this planet in two years.
TS: OK. But I’m going to have to slow down here for a moment because you said, the worst astrological configuration in—
JF: I said the most difficult! [Laughs]
TS: Most difficult, sorry. No, it’s good to be accurate. The most difficult configuration in a thousand years. And of course, I’m thinking back to—
JF: In our lifetime—I’m saying it hasn’t happened for a thousand years, it’s been our lifetime, this is one of the hardest.
TS: Yes, and I’m thinking of the horrific things that happened in the 20th century. And just to be specific, what is happening astrologically, what planets are—
JF: So these are the three planets: Pluto in Capricorn will be conjunct with Saturn in Capricorn will be conjunct with Jupiter in Capricorn in 2020.
TS: Can you take me through that slowly?
JF: OK. Pluto is our capacity for transformation on the highest level and death and rebirth on the highest level. But on the lowest level, it’s the abject will for power and control at all costs. That’s Pluto. Saturn in Capricorn is about karma and the laws of karma, what you have sown you will reap. And Saturn at the highest level is taking full responsibility for where we have landed ourselves, which is in a climate crisis that is astronomical and a poverty crisis that is astronomical, etc. So, the lowest form of Saturn in Capricorn is autocratic decision-making that is cruel, and unforgiving, and is about superiority and arrogance. That’s the lowest.
And then you have Jupiter. And Jupiter in Capricorn is about the expansion, at the highest, of responsibility and the expansion of accountability. So that everyone has the potential during this time to say, instead of who’s to blame, how can I help? We would shift the entire conversation from who’s to blame to, what can we do now, how can I help? OK. But the lowest form of Jupiter in Capricorn is the absolute narcissist who has no, in any way consideration or respect for the law or the rules and thinks that they’re above them and therefore anyone and everyone can suffer at the expense of their vision of a higher order.
TS: Well, I can’t help but think of your three levels: primitive, adaptive, and evolving. Looking at 2020 through that lens, could you describe the primitive, adaptive, and evolving expression that exists in potentiality for us?
JF: Sure, great. The primitive would absolutely be that the world is ruled more and more by corruption and absolute power, and that the divide between the haves and the have nots becomes insurmountable, and that the tension between materialism and spirituality has become unbearable, and that the primitive would be that the dictators and despots absolutely crushed the world through extremely unfeeling and uncaring policies. And that the world become desperately in trouble in terms of the unprotected and the environment. That’s the worst. That’s the primitive.
The adaptive would be everybody that’s ever thought themselves capable of making a difference comes out of the closet, votes, gets engaged, sees what they can do, and there is a tidal wave of collective accountability that we haven’t seen in our lifetime so that every single person feels part of the conversation and takes their stand wherever they need to take it. But instead of like a 40 percent voting rate, or instead of people being on their phones and TVs for 18 hours a day, it would be everybody starts pitching in. That would be adaptive.
And then evolving would be—this is my personal favorite, it would be tantamount to an alien landing or a group of them [Tami laughs] that represents total, unconditional loving consciousness. And the moral vector raises instantaneously and everyone sees that we are not separate from one another and takes full responsibility to repair all the divisiveness and all the oppression that we’ve ever done to anyone.
TS: Hmm. Well, I’m definitely with you that it would be tantamount to an alien landing, [Jennifer laughs] maybe that possibility will happen. Now, in listening to this conversation, I’m imagining someone who says, “Look, Jennifer Freed is clearly a very talented psychological astrologer, I wish I could have a reading with her. Tami is lucky. Tami got a little insight during this call, but I’m not going to get a reading with her. Is it possible that I can take a book like her new book, Use Your Planets Wisely, and get a printout of my chart and really be able to understand myself and what’s going on?
JF: Yes, that’s why I wrote the book. I’m super practical. If somebody really—my fondest desire, if somebody gets a readout, they start using this book, at the end of every chapter there are suggestions for working with other people in your life using the book. If every one of your listeners or anyone that was interested picked up this book, worked with it with real earnestness, they would have enough for years of illumination. And certainly if they did it with other people, they would upgrade their social and self-awareness in a very tangible way. And it’s absolutely enough. And for the cost of a book, there’s enough in this book to do that could last a long time and keep repeating itself. None of these lessons are over. My challenges with myself, yours with yourself, Tami, we both know this, are not over. So we’re all learning. And that’s the emphasis of self-compassion is just keep the learning going, don’t give up.
TS: And the phrase, “Use your planets wisely.” How am I using the planets?
JF: Well, I think of the planets in your chart as energies that you either just feel hostage to or you’re in creative partnership with. So when I say, “Use your planets wisely,” what I mean, for example, is that if your moon is in Virgo like yours is, to use that planet wisely is to upgrade your use of Virgo instead of servitude and martyrdom to a sense of extraordinary service, and discernment, and discrimination so that when you’re serving, you’re putting Tami as part of the equation, and so it’s not just a selfless act at the expense of you. So if you use your planet wisely, the planet and you become co-creators in this extraordinary expression of yourself.
TS: OK, final question, Jennifer. This program is called Insights at the Edge, and I’m curious to know, right now in your life, whether you’re basing that on your chart and you know what’s going on right now with the transits of the planets, what’s your edge right now, your growth edge?
JF: Well, because I’m always going to be an honest person because I have a [Sagittarius] rising like you do, Tami, My biggest growth edge because I tend to be very mental and philosophical and extraordinarily optimistic, is that I’m in a lot of personal pain right now because a few people in my life are suffering so deeply. And my growth edge is to keep feeling instead of rationalizing or going into my head. So for me, my edge is getting the help I need and the softness that I need to stay with my feelings instead of banishing them and just be more robotic. That’s my edge.
TS: I really appreciate the answer. Where’s that in your astrological configuration?
JF: You mean that my tendency to want to get above it?
TS: Yes.
JF: I’m an Aquarius with a Sagittarius rising. So my go-to place is think big, think positive. And so when I’m in a very painful moment, like I am now, I want to deflect and get out of it. And I’m really challenging myself and even telling you and your listeners this right now, to not make it rose-colored glasses. This is a very difficult time for me and I really need a lot of support. Just today, I called two friends and said, “Can I get hug? Can you talk to me?” That’s hard to do for me, but I’m doing it because I want to walk the talk and I really believe that when we’re in painful time, we need to meet them with love and tenderness, not banishment. So I’m doing it.
TS: I really appreciate so much your vulnerability and your honesty. If you were to apply just once again, because I love this model so much, it’s a good note to end on the primitive, adaptive, and evolving to your current situation, how would you do that?
JF: I can tell you without a doubt. If I was in my primitive, and when I was young I would do this, I would just act out. I would become belligerent, angry, defensive, and cut off, and I would just make other people wrong. That’s my primitive. The adaptive for me is trying to make the best of the situation and really understanding how I can be helpful, and where my limitations are, and as I’m doing, reaching out for help, getting the therapy I need, getting the support I need, and making time for the grieving because I just need the grieving right now. Evolving would be … I’m not there, Tami. But evolving would be that I could just be sobbing right now with you on this show and then—like, I feel it right now—the vulnerability, and just allow the divine of my own knowing to comfort me, and then share that wisdom with others.
TS: What a beautiful, honest response, Jennifer. I really, really appreciate it and I really appreciate the depth of your approach to astrology. Thank you.
JF: Thank you. It’s really been an honor. You’re one of my iconic heroines, so I appreciate the time with you.
TS: I’ve been speaking with Jennifer Freed. She’s the author of a new book called Use Your Planets Wisely: Master Your Ultimate Cosmic Potential with Psychological Astrology. Thank you so much for being with us. SoundsTrue.com. Let’s go for that evolving vision of 2020. Thank you for listening to Insights at the Edge. You can read a full transcript of today’s interview at SoundsTrue.com/podcast. And if you’re interested, hit the subscribe button in your podcast app. And also if you feel inspired, head to iTunes and leave Insights at the Edge a review. I love getting your feedback, being in connection with you, and learning how we can continue to evolve and improve our program. Working together, I believe we can create a kinder and wiser world. SoundsTrue.com: waking up the world.
