Tami Simon: You’re listening to Insights at the Edge.
Today I speak with Jeff Klein, the Executive Director and Chief Integration Office, truly a career title for the twenty-first century, of Conscious Capitalism, Inc, as well as the CEO of Cause Alliance Marketing, and the author a new Sounds True book Working for Good: Making a Difference While Making a Living. I spoke with Jeff about many of the tensions that exist in the work place between our ideals, our heart ideals, and the gritty realities of business. Here’s Jeff Klein, “Doing Well, by Doing Good.”
Tami Simon: To begin with Jeff, can you just summarize Working for Good? What is the philosophical statement of working for good? What is it?
Jeff Klein: Working for good is an approach to work. It is how we work. What I have observed over the last thirty years of working for various organizations that were intending to do good in the world, that what they were doing, the product they were producing, was fabulous. But often the way they were doing it didn’t line up. And my understanding is that how we relate to ourselves and each other in the context of work is as important as or more important than what we are actually doing. And that if our intention is to create a better world–right, sustainable, and people flourishing–then we have got to work in ways that cultivate that. And that is really the essence of working for good.
Tami Simon: So you are saying that you worked in lots of organizations that purported to be doing something positive for the world, but the actual work experience was filled with…what kinds of garbage did you witness? Just a quick summary. Name forms of garbage.
Jeff Klein: Well, one form of garbage is that the idealistic vision takes precedence over people. So you might want to preserve the gene pool, but people have horrible working conditions. Or they don’t have any supervision and they don’t know what they are supposed to be doing. And they are frustrated and stressed out and anxious because of that. Or your intention is to alleviate poverty and make the world a better place, but you’ve got your hand like this on where the people in your organization can go. Like, you just stay right there. And any time somebody tries to really express themselves and their creativity, it is like, hmmm, no.
So that incongruity between creating a world where people are flourishing and not creating the conditions and not treating people in ways that supports the flourishing right there.
Tami Simon: So what did you discover about what people need in businesses so that the processes of their work actually reflects their highest values? What do we have to do differently in business?
Jeff Klein: Well, the most important thing, and this is the first skill of working for good, is awareness. It all begins with awareness. Of recognizing what it is we are doing. And how it is affecting us and how it is affecting others and how it is affecting our whole system, meaning the system of our business and what is happening as we go out into the marketplace in the world. So awareness is the first thing.
Tami Simon: Okay. And how do you define awareness?
Jeff Klein: I define awareness as a conscious recognition of: oh, I see what is going on. I see, I recognize how I am feeling, how I am thinking, or I recognize the effect of what I am doing has on another person, or I recognize the effect of what they are doing has on me, or I recognize the effect of the way that we are doing things has on each of us or all of us together. And then, after recognizing it, being able to make a conscious decision: I am going to do something about this. Or, I am going to bring this up. Or, I am going to inquire about this. It is like, I am wondering or I am feeling a little uncomfortable about the way that we are doing things here. I wonder if you are. Or, I notice that you have been really stressed out lately—is there something going on? You know, opening the space for the real stuff that is going on underneath to come up.
And I am finding more and more, as I now take this out into the world and talk to people, people are just “yes”! We have to check our values or personalities at the door, or I can’t say this, or I can’t do that. Or, it is a good job, but… I mean everywhere I go people have this feeling of being suppressed, not being able to be who they are or bring what they have to offer to their work. And it is not working for them. And the organizations are not getting all that they could get, either. Right?
Tami Simon: Well, I guess here is the challenge that I have for you. Here at Sounds True, I know many different spiritual teachers who teach on awareness, and they teach wonderful practices. And when you are with them you even feel this quality of spaciousness and openness, but, and I have seen this in many cases, that their organizations are a mess. That the awareness that they have has actually not led to organizational intelligence, when it comes to putting together an organizational chart or understanding process flows or understanding cash or any of those other things. So it seems like awareness and even then the ability to know how you are feeling and talk about those feelings is actually not enough to make a good business.
Jeff Klein: Absolutely. Totally. I totally agree. And I’ve defined five skills of working for good, which relate to each other in a system. So it is awareness, embodiment, connection, collaboration, and integration. And, mind you, the skills of business—accounting, marketing, operations, management—those are connected to these skills. But these are meta-skills, as it were, that make the functioning of all those processes and skills work better.
So awareness, as I say, if you don’t act on it, if you don’t embody it, is useless. So the progression is you start with awareness, then you take the lens of awareness and look at it and say, okay, where am I in relation to my work? What is it that turns me on? What are my intentions with respect to my work? What is my purpose? What are the principles that guide me? I am starting with the individual here but that also spreads to the us, to the we. And what are the commitments that I am going to make? So you are taking awareness, shining it on yourself in relationship to your work, and then bringing that.
But then the next step is, okay, how am I interacting with other people? Because ultimately businesses are a form of social organization, right? People come together to do something together. A family is a form of social organization that has a certain orientation, it does something. A business does something specific. Okay, we are publishing wisdom publications. How are we going to work together in the context of this business?
Tami Simon: Lovingly. Kindly. Generously. Transparently.
Jeff Klein: Generously. And transparently. And openly. And it might be okay for us to have arguments.
Tami Simon: Yeah!
Jeff Klein: Good hot ones.
Tami Simon: Yeah!
Jeff Klein: But we are going to start from the place of we have certain principles. And the principles are that I am going to express myself fully, but I am not attacking you as a human being. And we are going to make that explicit. And we are going to know when we are going to get hot, it is like, I am getting hot now, are you okay with me getting hot?
Tami Simon: I want you to get hot, Jeff.
Jeff Klein: I am going to let it rip, alright? So, establishing those ground rules and building the fabric, right, which is trust and compassion. And right now trust is a big theme in business.
Tami Simon: Because it has been so destroyed.
Jeff Klein: There is no trust, right? Inside business and the outside to consumers as it were…no trust in business. Employees don’t trust in management, etc. Well trust happens between human beings, right? So bringing that embodied awareness into relationship and cultivating the skills and the practice of being human with each other, because ultimately we are human. Remember, it is a human social organization here. It is not some abstract thing in a book. It is people doing things together. So if people are going to do things together then they have got to be together.
And then from connection comes collaboration. Collaboration is a specific…we can be connected with each other and not do anything. But in the context of business and producing results, we have got to work together. Collaboration. “Co” and “labor,” doing something. There is a whole other set of skills and practices that we can use to facilitate or make easier the process of collaboration, but awareness, embodiment, and connection are the ground that give us the foundation for collaborating in ways that really unleash our collective intelligence. And our collective conscience. And creativity, etc.
Integration is the process of, you know, what happens when you come together and stir up new ideas and new experiences. You digest it and ultimately you the individual, you the relationship, you the organization, is different from where you were yesterday. Integration is a process of that recognizing that new place that you are, with new intelligence, new capacity. And the process of integration also gives you the opportunity to go, okay, well what is next? And what haven’t we yet addressed here? If there are some shadows or holes or unaddressed issues. Voices that we are pushing down. It gives us a chance to find out what it is we are not necessarily paying attention to or repressing a little bit. Opportunities to bring them to the floor. And then what happens when you integrate, when you come back around to awareness, you are in a new place. You’ve got a broader or deeper vision.
Tami Simon: As you are talking I am imaging a couple of examples, both within Sounds True but also within the greater business world, where I can see people coming together who are aware, at least somewhat aware, you know, how they are feeling, they are willing to speak what is going on for them, there is a personal connection that is being made. But then when it comes to that collaboration step, they just have different needs and wants. I want to do it this way. I am being honest; this is what I am feeling. I am connected to you; I like you. But guess what? I think this is the right way to do it. And this other person who is saying, actually, I totally disagree with you. And the collaboration part doesn’t actually happen. I have seen this in terms of different departments at the company. These are people who are doing their spiritual practices, believe it or not. Probably a much higher level of self-awareness than people in most companies actually here in Boulder, Colorado, etc., committed to this kind of material. That is why they are working at Sounds True. They are willing to speak their truth, strong-minded people. They are willing to be personally connected, but when it comes to collaborating, they see it differently. What do you do?
Jeff Klein: Partly it depends on the context. But collaboration doesn’t mean that everyone has to get along and be able to agree on what you are doing. There are hierarchies even within collaboration. You can have a situation that is consensus based, where everyone has to agree on the decision, right? And then if they don’t agree, the next step is don’t agree with it but will go along with it. And then the next level is somebody is going to make the decision regardless of what everyone else things, but is going to be informed by a collaborative process.
So you, for instance, as the head honcho here at Sounds True. You can create the space for and facilitate a collaborative process. At the end of the day, you can say, this is the way it is going to be, regardless of anything else. And as long as that is the agreement and the rules and everybody understands that, that is totally fine. In the situation you outlined where there are just certain people that can’t get along…
Tami Simon: Or see if differently. See the work needs differently…
Jeff Klein: Well, one is it depends on the specific context. What is it that you are looking to collaborate or facilitate an agreement or collaboration on? There are skillful ways and it also depends on how much time you want to take and what you can afford. The resources you can afford for the process. A higher source may make it so, you know, we are going to stay with this, because we need to find a way. And the way might be a shift in the way you are organized. And it is okay if they are not working together, as long as what they are doing is coordinated. They might not have to collaborate. But it might need to be coordinated. And then it is a question of, okay, what is the coordination process? Do the two of them need to coordinate or is there another way that their work can be coordinated? So you can design around the fact that they can’t collaborate. But make it real clear that that is what you are doing.
Tami Simon: Well, part of where I am coming from when I hear your model is I gave you the example of the aware spiritual teachers and how often their organizations don’t work because they actually don’t have training in the traditional business skills to combine with these inner skills.
Jeff Klein: That is a nice excuse.
Tami Simon: What is your…
Jeff Klein: I actually…I mean, I have an issue with that. And I appreciate that you bring it up, because I have seen that and I have seen it in companies as well. You know, with these higher aspirations and great visions and a mess. And you know, you can recognize that you don’t know how to do something, and you find someone who does. It is not rocket science. I mean, that is part of the whole opportunity that we have in business and in an organization, whether it is for profit or a nonprofit. You’ve got this purpose, which is transmitting these teachings, right? Then you need to create the corpus, the body, that carries them. So if your teachings are meant to create flourishing and all that, then you would think you would have an intention or a commitment to create a corpus that reflects that. So find the people who can do it. I mean, I am sorry, but there is no excuse.
Tami Simon: That’s fine. I am with you. Make the commitment; find the right people. So that is one example. But then I have also seen some of the publicly brightest faced conscious capitalist businesses, who talk a lot of the talk, but when you get in, and you talk to people who have worked at these companies over a period of time, they are like, you know, when you really look at what is happening inside those doors in terms of human relationships, there is a breakdown somewhere in this five-part process you have described. So the way you describe it, it sounds kind of wonderful and beautiful. We are going to be aware. We are going to embody that, you know, and that is not actually the way it looks when it gets rolled out at a lot of businesses. So I am curious in your view…I chose the collaboration part as the breakdown. But maybe that is not the breakdown. Where do you see it breaking down often in practice? And how do we address those breakdowns?
Jeff Klein: First of all, that is a great question and a great example. First of all, we are all in process. We are all learning, we are all growing, we are all developing–or dying. And there is no perfection, as it were. There is commitment, and there is embodiment. And there are mistakes and there are parts that work and parts that don’t work. So I want to acknowledge that, that there is no perfect company out there doing everything perfectly. And especially as companies get bigger and more complex. It is hard to sustain the culture, one. And two, just the human infrastructure. The more people you have the more idiosyncrasies, the more different chemistries you are going to have. So you are going to have issues and challenges…and the people who are complaining. It could have been their shadows projected onto the company. You don’t know.
So you have to look at what is the stated intention. What are the structures and processes and principles that are in place, and how are they being embodied and practiced? And to what extent is the system on different levels aware of what it is doing right and what is not working and where there are still opportunities to grow and learn. One of the things I love about John Mackey is he is looking all the time. It is like, okay, where do I need to continue to grow and stretch in service to the company. And where are these wonderful systems that we’ve designed and are implementing? Where are they working and where are they maybe not working as things shift and change?
I see Chip Conley…
Tami Simon: The CEO of…
Jeff Klein: Joie de Vive hotels. He has built a business based around Maslow’s hierarchy and peak and really cultivating human flourishing within his organization–but now while having to deal with the economic downturn. And he did it before in 2001 and really stuck with the people. And it served to get him through it. And now it is another downturn and a difficult one. You have to face those challenges and questions and what are the decisions you make. But living with the questions. And very purposefully, living with the questions and holding all of your intentions and all the demands on you as you make your decisions. You might make the decision to, say, the financial decision over the human decision, but it is going to be a process and an agonizing one. I am not suggesting that Chip does that or has done that. But it is not the only thing you are considering. You are really looking at the whole fabric that you are working with.
Tami Simon: Yeah. Well I can imagine someone from the outside of this whole working for good, conscious capitalist movement, they could say, “Well, okay great. These kinds of principles, this five-step model, doesn’t really work all that well for the people who are trying to do it. They are on some aspiration curve. It works somewhat. So why even bother?” Do you know what I mean? I mean, that would be the kind of cynic’s view. Like this is not even working so great for all these do-gooder companies. Do you know what I mean? They are trying.
Jeff Klein: Not doing so great is relative. Because everybody has challenges and it is a question of what are the challenges you are facing and how do you look at them. And the other thing is, you know, why do this. Well, the old model isn’t working. I mean, you’ve got hoards of people living in quiet desperation, and some of them in not so quiet desperation. Employees. And if you look at employee surveys, they are demanding now that companies and management consider their well-being—and beyond just healthcare insurance. And that they have an active say. And that management taking an active interest in their growth and development is way up there in terms of what employees are looking for. Customers, consumers—same thing. Companies that are taking care of their employees. Companies that are serving the greater good in some way. That is where people are putting their allegiance to. They millennial generation…they pretty much explicitly said, “We are only going to work for companies that are conscious on some level, and we are only going to buy from companies that are.”
Tami Simon: Now what do you mean by the word “conscious” when you say that?
Jeff Klein: Well, I put it in quotation marks. I mean, companies that are treating people with respect and treating them as human beings.
Tami Simon: I am only going to work someplace where people treat me with respect. I think that is reasonable.
Jeff Klein: It is reasonable!
Tami Simon: I think that is a bottom line reasonable thing to ask for! Why would I go into work and not be treated with respect? Why would I go anywhere?
Jeff Klein: Absolutely. And one of the things that I get…I mean, I am a pretty straightforward, simple guy, you know? Basic rules like the golden rule is…this is all common sense. And people read about the book or read the book and they go, “This makes so much sense. It is just common sense.” Yes, it is common sense, but it is not being applied. And people will check their values and their personalities at the door for the check. And they’ve done it. And what is more and more, they are going, “I can’t do this anymore!”
Tami Simon: Yeah, thank God.
Jeff Klein: Exactly. Can’t do this anymore. So really in a certain respect I am expressing what I have heard and witnessed countless others expressing.
Tami Simon: So you think this millennial generation has a sort of higher sense of self-esteem or a higher willingness to prostitute themselves for money. It is not just about money; I need or I have a certain level of what I need as a person, and I am not going to compromise that.
Jeff Klein: Yeah, I do. I do. And the research says the same thing and…
Tami Simon: What research?
Jeff Klein: Kohn, Roper, and Duke University have done studies of the millennials and of people’s relationship to companies and their behavior and their relationships to their cause activity.
Tami Simon: And what is that research stating?
Jeff Klein: Well the research shows that the millennials, and I don’t remember the exact number, but the millennials…
Tami Simon: And millennials mean you are born in?
Jeff Klein: You are about eighteen to twenty-some years old now. And that 85 to 88 percent will buy from a company that in some way is serving society, whether it is actively engaged in a cause, as long as the product quality is… Whereas other adults it is maybe 75 or 76 percent. So while the Boomers are in this direction as well, the millennials are even more so.
Tami Simon: And what is your explanation for that?
Jeff Klein: Well, they are the kids of the Baby Boomers. And there is a book called Generations, which kind of maps out all the generations and says, “This is the DNA of this generation.” And they are a generation that is in a certain respect more action oriented than the Boomers. The Boomers were idealists, and these guys are the folks that go, “We are actually doing this now.”
Tami Simon: One of the key things that seems to me in a business is simply, what is the motivation behind the business to start with. And what I am curious about is do you think that someone could have a motivation that says, I want to make money, I want to do good, and both these things are actually equal? They are equal. One is not stronger than the other. And they would be able to roll that out through the course of their life with both of those things. Or does one of those things always take precedence? Because there is a certain point where you have got to kinda…one takes the lead. You can’t hold both. Or can you hold both evenly?
Jeff Klein: I love that question. I really love that question.
Tami Simon: Well, Jeff. I am so happy.
Jeff Klein: No, really. I think it is a fabulous question. And it is one that I’ve actually been kind of wrestling with for a long time. And the short answer is yes.
Tami Simon: You can hold both? Equally? 50/50?
Jeff Klein: Well, you know, you go like this. The point of the question, and underlying question, to that, is what is the motivation in relation to the money piece? In other words, is it, “I am doing this for the money?” Or, “I am after the money.” As opposed to, “I’ve got a calling and there is a purpose.” It raises the whole question…what is money about? So if money is about sustainability, sustenance, nourishment…
Tami Simon: What if it is about more than that? What if it is about power and freedom and opportunity and…
Jeff Klein: That is what I am saying.
Tami Simon: I mean, I don’t want just sustainability. I want major power, major freedom, major opportunities. I don’t want like a little sustainable money.
Jeff Klein: Totally. I was going there. Yeah, it is all of these things. Money isn’t just something you put in your pocket.
Tami Simon: Yeah, I don’t want just like food tomorrow.
Jeff Klein: Exactly. And so that is aspirational in itself, right? That is aspirational as a human being. And as a family and as a community. It is like, yeah, we want to create wealth here. Abundance. Openness. Opportunity. And we have a specific purpose, other specific purpose, which is to deliver wisdom, right? Or…
Tami Simon: All kinds of things.
Jeff Klein: Good food to eat. And all kinds of things. So yeah, if we look at the money part as all that the money represents, then I think it is actually healthy to hold both. And I am really happy you asked that, because I have not heard that articulated and I haven’t articulated that.
Tami Simon: But don’t you think that for someone trying to do that they could feel kind of like they are riding two horses? Like, you can’t ride two horses? You’ve got to ride one? Trying to really do both of these things is going to somehow reach a point where you have to make some kind of decision like, well, you know, this one is going to have to take the lead on this decision.
Jeff Klein: That is interesting because the whole conversation around purpose and that the core of a business is every business has a deeper purpose.
Tami Simon: You are saying this whole conversation…this is a conversation…
Jeff Klein: Conversation in the context of the conscious capitalism movement.
Tami Simon: Okay, so maybe you can explain that for our listeners.
Jeff Klein: So conscious capitalism and the Conscious Business Alliance, which were born out of FLOW, which John Mackey and Michael Strong found and I’ve been running for the last four years, is focused on catalyzing and advancing a new model of business essentially. Focused on three principles. And the first principle is purpose, that every business has a deeper purpose, deeper than return on investment.
And the second principle is that a business exists in a system of interdependent, interrelated stake holders, and that the way to create a healthy business is to create value for all the stakeholders. Again, not focusing on the shareholders and return on investment, but focusing on the system. Like a garden, you just can’t take care of one plant. You’ve got to look at the soil and the water and the other plants around it, etc.
And the third principle is leadership and we haven’t fixed on an adjective—whether it is servant leadership or conscious leadership, but it is the kind of leadership that is there in service to the purpose and to the stakeholder system. And that it is leadership that cultivates that spirit and that way of leading throughout the organization, as opposed to, “I am the boss and I am here to get my big paycheck.”
Tami Simon: Although I might want to get my big paycheck too.
Jeff Klein: But it should come out of service. It is a byproduct.
Tami Simon: I am with you. So the idea of purpose, the first principle here of a conscious business. That there is a purpose beyond return on your investment. So if we just pause and stop right there. I would say most businesses don’t have a purpose beyond return on investment. A lot of businesses don’t. When I hear a lot of people I know talking about the business that they, you know, it is not necessarily like, “This is some purpose that is going to help other people.” It is like, “Hey, this has got great margins. I think I have the skills to do it. I could make some good money. And oh, by the way, once I do this business that has great margins, then I can do some nice things for my employees because I am a nice person.”
Jeff Klein: So let’s think about it. Give an example. Somebody makes a widget, right? But that widget does something. That widget has a purpose. It is serving something in some way. If the purpose of your business is to make money… “Would you please give me money so I can make money?” Come on. Nobody is going to transact with a business that only exists to make money. You’ve got to be delivering some service or product and there is a purpose underlying that. Like Wal-Mart’s purpose was and to some extent still is providing access to goods at a low cost that people otherwise wouldn’t have access to. Right?
Tami Simon: But it is interesting. Like, someone says, “I want to be a personal injury attorney, because I think I can make a lot of money. And part of that is I want to help these people.” But that kind of comes in later as an explanation…like, oh, here is some good. That is not really why they are doing it.
Jeff Klein: So your question is about motivation again.
Tami Simon: It is really.
Jeff Klein: Because there is a difference between motivation and purpose. You may not be deeply connected to the purpose. You may not be coming from the place of the purpose. But it is still there. Providing that service is the purpose. And the sense of conscious capitalism is that if you shift your focus from making the money to the purpose and to the stakeholders, and you support that system, you are going to end up with a happier, healthier, more money. You are going to have a different experience, and you are going to have a successful business.
Tami Simon: So what you are saying is, actually, regardless of the person’s original motivation, regardless, anybody who is in business could be running a conscious business…
Jeff Klein: Absolutely.
Tami Simon: …if they focused on the purpose. If they shifted their…
Jeff Klein: And the stakeholders. And they shifted their focus from money. It is not about this. It is about what we are doing and why we are doing it and how we are all interacting together to do this—our customers, employees, vendors, investors, community. We are all in this together. This is a social activity, social enterprise. All enterprises are social enterprises.
Tami Simon: Well let me just go a little bit harder here for a second, Jeff. So I’ve met a lot of people in business and I have met a lot of people who are doing good work in the world, and I’ve met a few who are actually doing both and are really combining them. And clearly you are one of them, and the network of people you are associated with. But it seems to be a minority. Okay, maybe…
Jeff Klein: An absolute minority.
Tami Simon: It is a minority that is maybe, hopefully, growing, hopefully growing from some of these kinds of efforts–Working for Good the book and other things. But it seems like most people I know fall into two different kinds of motivational camps. One group of people is very motivated by service. There is something in their heart that just says, “The most important thing to me is to serve love in the world and its expression. And justice, etc.” And there are the other people who are like, “You know, if I don’t take care of my ass, nobody will. And really the real thing that is motivating me is that I want to make a good living and I want to provide for my family and I want the freedom and the power and everything that comes from this. And I don’t want to stampede people in the process. I’d like be a good person in the process. But that is really what is motivating me. Because if I don’t take care of myself, nobody will. And those do-gooders over there…great. They can go to church on Sundays and die and go to Heaven. Good for them. But I am going to get mine.” And there are very few people who actually somehow seem to bring this into a meaningful whole. Is that your experience?
Jeff Klein: Yes, that is my experience too. But I’ve been on this path for thirty years. I consider it a path.
Tami Simon: The path is?
Jeff Klein: The path of integrating service and business. Service and money, as it were. Doing well by doing good, so to speak. And what I have seen…it is like the same way that the social investment industry…I was observing it. I actually did research on it for Bob Rodale in 1981 when it was insipient. And now it is a trillion dollar industry, right? So, I watched it grow. It is the same thing here. The natural products industry, right? Organic food was nothing in 1961; now it is a multi-billion dollar industry. This is an emerging movement. It is without question. As to how far and wide and deeply it will reach and how much influence it will have? Let’s look back five, ten, fifteen years from now. But it is here. It is happening. And it is starting to reach more people. And more people are starting to ask for it, pay attention to it, show up at the table for the conversations, for the explorations. So it is happening. And how fast and how big, I don’t presume to know. But it is here. It is like an ecosystem starts with the pioneer plants. Well the pioneers are now well established and the next generation, the next wave of plants that come and grow under the shade of the pioneers? They are showing up.
Tami Simon: And who do you see as the key pioneers?
Jeff Klein: Well, wow. I mean certainly John [Mackey] and Whole Foods are a significant pioneer. And then there are many smaller companies, one-hundred, two-hundred, three-hundred million dollar companies, in the natural products industry. There is Ben and Jerry’s, in some respect. Certainly The Container Store. Chip [Conley] of Joie de Vive. Different companies embody different parts of this. But this full integrated model—Whole Foods, The Container Store, Joie de Vive…
Tami Simon: So let’s just stop with those three for a second, because those are three good examples of successful, large companies. What is it about Whole Foods that blows your mind about their working for good pioneering hood? And not what they talk about, but what they are actually doing?
Jeff Klein: Well, first of all is the team-based structure that they have. It really sets a DNA for empowerment. I mean, people learn and grow in their jobs. And they have a sense of authorship working in a store on the floor. You have a sense of authorship, a sense of responsibility of ownership.
Tami Simon: So team-based meaning everything doesn’t come from some corporate headquarters?
Jeff Klein: It doesn’t come from the top down. That is one piece that reflects this way of thinking.
The evolution of their purpose, the evolution of their understanding of the stakeholder model. So for instance they recently added to their core values a new one that relates to their vendors, because there wasn’t an articulated value relating to their vendors. And their vendors said, “Hey, I thought we were part of your system here.” And they realized, oh, you know, we articulated our values twenty-five years ago, but we weren’t thinking of our vendors in that way. But clearly we’ve evolved. So recognizing the evolutionary process and integrating it.
One development in Whole Goods that John talks about a lot is the evolution or the emergence of the Whole Planet Foundation. The Whole Planet Foundation came out of the core management team recognizing, alright, what do we need to do next? And they realized, okay, we are doing business globally now. We have an effect everywhere. We are sourcing products from all over the world. And as we understand that we have a responsibility to the communities that we work in and to stores…raise money for and distribute to communities. We now as a company have a responsibility to a broader global community. And they determined that one of the ways that they could embody that responsibility was through a microcredit program, providing microcredit to women principally, in communities where they are sourcing product. Not to the producers of the products. But in those communities.
And the interesting thing…so coming from that place—understanding stakeholder, coming from their purpose—the effect on the whole system was extraordinary. Team members have never been more turned on by anything Whole Foods has done. Lining up to volunteer to go to the things. Customers making contributions. Vendors lining up to join the program and make contributions and have their…
Tami Simon: Yeah, it is beautiful.
Jeff Klein: So coming from this purpose-driven stakeholder model, something new emerges that just reflects the system and energizes the system. And that is very exciting to me.
Tami Simon: So let’s just briefly touch on these other two examples of The Container Store and Joie de Vive. What about their businesses make them pioneering contributors?
Jeff Klein: Sure. And I don’t know as much about them as I do…
Tami Simon: Sure.
Jeff Klein: But I know that The Container Store provides more training for their team members than possibly any retailer. Just hundreds of hours. And they have the longest retention. I think the average length of employment is like twenty years. People stay for life. You go into one of those stores, and it is like going into a mom and pop shop and you are talking to mom or pop. They all own it. So that intention and that culture are absolutely manifest. You can feel it when you go into the place. I go to the store frequently.
Joie de Vive I don’t have the same kind of experience with. I have more…knowing Chip, reading his book, talking to others in that industry. Everybody is recognized as a human being and given the opportunity to develop themselves. Again, it is part of the culture. And during hard times, Chip took no salary rather than firing people, which is huge.
Tami Simon: It is huge.
Jeff Klein: I mean you look at what other companies have done, firing thousands of people and not even cutting a penny from their multi-million dollar salaries. Totally different consciousness.
Tami Simon: Well, it sounds like with the working for good principles and this idea of cultural empowerment and treating humans as ends in themselves, that this could apply even if you started your business because you wanted to make a lot of money. You could still see the value of these principles as allowing you to run your successful business even more successfully. Or you could be interested in business more like me, or others, from the do-gooder perspective, and then said, wow, here is a way that I want to be successful and these principles actually give me an opportunity to operationalize what I care about. So either way, regardless of what your original motivation is, it can all kind of come together in this working for good model. Do you think that is true?
Jeff Klein: Absolutely. And a third is, if you are going to start a business. Start it from here, right? So, yes, in any case they apply.
Tami Simon: Now what do you see as the biggest challenges for people who are looking at these principles and they want to bring them into business? What do you think are the challenges they face?
Jeff Klein: I am laughing because it is kind of the challenges of when you enter into a spiritual path or hero’s journey.
Tami Simon: You have a lot of challenges it sounds to me! [laughs]
Jeff Klein: Exactly. Well, you know, stuff comes up. I mean, the biggest challenge is recognizing that you are going to be dealing with issues that come up for yourself. You are going to be dealing with issues that come up with other people. And it is not about creating encounter groups at work. I mean…
Tami Simon: Well, let’s get personal. What has come up for you in trying to live these principles in your work life that you would say has been the challenge?
Jeff Klein: Well, one thing is that there have been times I’ve gotten hammered, holding up a light or raising questions of what are we doing here and how are we doing it. And it is like saying, well, the king is not wearing any clothes.
Tami Simon: You mean other people in the organization are like, Jeff, can’t you just be quiet please?
Jeff Klein: Yes, couldn’t you just be quiet please.
Tami Simon: I can imagine that.
Jeff Klein: And a lot worse than that sometimes. And also…I won’t name names. But there are times when I’ve essentially opened the door to bringing out the best in people and what is really going on here and it has led to complete transformation of the company in ways that the founders might have been booted out. Not that I did it. But the process was, you guys are not doing something that works here. And from the pother end, the thing worked better.
Tami Simon: Okay, but in both of these instances, once again not to be rude, you’ve sort of given examples of sort of other people having problems. But what about for you?
Jeff Klein: Oh me?
Tami Simon: Yeah, like, sort of personally in your own process of ideas like awareness, embodiment, connection, collaboration…This is challenging. You compared it to being on a spiritual path or being on a hero’s journey. I mean, you must have met some dragons along the way.
Jeff Klein: Absolutely. And they still show up. Part of it is I get to see my own or have at times gotten to see my own holes, my own contradictions, places where I wasn’t necessarily aligned with what I was intending or putting out there.
Tami Simon: Can you give us an example?
Jeff Klein: Oh boy.
Tami Simon: You can pick one of the…you don’t have to…
Jeff Klein: I mean, I am just getting images. These are good questions, by the way. Well, I will put it this way. Where maybe my ego or ambition was actually informing me more than I knew. And that while I might have been really facilitating a healthy process on one hand I was also…ego and ambition was in there. And it affected my ability to really hear other people or communicate as effectively as I might have wanted to. So that is an abstract. I am not giving a specific business context. But certainly that ego and ambition.
And another one is—this is a little different—but I’ve left various companies that I have helped start or helped turn around. I’ve left. And I’ve left disappointed. Right? Because the people didn’t want to go farther. And now I recognize that if I had there experience and the knowledge and the skill that I have now then? Then I might have been able to be more effective in facilitating the process in those places. And maybe I would have been there longer, right? So I didn’t have the tools to do what was called for in those situations. So recognizing that my skill was not up to snuff.
Another is there have been times—and even as recently as last summer when I kind of held up a big light on what seemed like a real shadowy experience. And I was abused to the point that I was super high stress, wondering if I was going crazy. I mean, it was really intense. And then ultimately, you know, I stayed. I felt strong enough, right? And I had a core team of collaborators who validated my experience and assured the experience. So between having enough internal strength and commitment to the process and colleagues and allies to say, yes, that I persevered. And ultimately did transform. The situation did transform. Not just because of me. But I was part of a process that led to a transformation into what is now a much healthier and productive system. And much more energized. So sometimes you get hammered for doing this. And sometimes you have to leave. You can’t take the hammering. But sometimes you’ve got the strength. You’ve got the commitment and you’ve got the support to persevere. And then you can make it through and something happens.
Tami Simon: You know we are talking a lot about these ideas and these principles. And for somebody who runs an organization, they might have a lot more leverage in terms of making this happen. But what about somebody who is interested in what you are saying, who is interested in these ideas of awareness, connection, collaboration, but they are an employee in an organization. And they think, god, I really don’t have much ability to affect this whole thing. The odds are I am going to be sort of asked to leave if I bring up all of these issues.
Jeff Klein: Well, you know, again, we are in a time where things are changing. And people are calling for this. People are writing about the search for meaning at work. And we have an opportunity to check in with the person sitting next to us. I mean, we can complain over the water fountain, or we can say, “Hey, I wonder if there is anything we can do about this?”
Tami Simon: Yes, that makes sense. But also in an economic downturn I want to keep my job and this isn’t exactly the time for me to be on my philosophical…
Jeff Klein: And you might be fired tomorrow anyway, right? I have to admit I have a hard time relating to this, because I have always just been on the edge and taken the risks. And taken whatever consequences come with them. But I recognize that not everyone can do that for whatever reasons. Either they just can’t afford the risk or…
Tami Simon: Or they don’t have the strength inside.
Jeff Klein: Or the confidence or the support or whatever it is.
Tami Simon: Or the sense of options.
Jeff Klein: I’ve had to pick myself up from the ground from being broke more than once and you just do it. But that doesn’t mean that everyone should have to do through that.
I want to come back to your point. One thing is—and I’ve learned this studying and practicing process-oriented psychology and also in Buddhist meditation. If you work on and cultivate yourself, things shift. Your orientation shifts, your relationships with other people shift, and whole systems can shift based on the actions of one person. You then take that and so you are cultivating yourself with these practices of awareness, embodiment, connection, and then just one other person. You have lunch with a colleague and you tell them what you are doing, and you ask how they are doing. It is like, hey, you want to do this together? And quietly. You can just do that. Or you might have a good relationship on a team, a team with whom you are working on a project together, and you might say, hey, why don’t we try this as we are getting ready for this next project? I’ve got this book I am reading. Or I have been studying this. I think it might make us even better and have more fun.
So find the places where there is an opening, and take those little steps. Because every little step creates a new place. So the journey of a thousand miles begins with a step. Take whatever step you can. And then there is that other thing…It is funny; I had a conversation with a mutual friend of ours. All of these wonderful quotations that we all see in all the books in everything, the great insights of the great masters and leaders and all that. They are all true. And they are all true on deeper levels. And as I kind of practice more and more, get into this more and more, getting to see the truth more and more, and one in particular: Goethe said take it, take the step. Whatever it is you can do, do it now. And that there is something that happens when you put the flag in the ground and say “I am going to do this.” All manner of events and people and things show up to make the way easier. And I am really finding that to be true. And yeah, the obstacles still show up too. But the allies and the gifts show up. And the deeper the commitment you make—not blind commitment, you’ve got to have your eyes open and read the terrain. Awareness is not just self-awareness. It is awareness of the marketplace and other people and all that, but when you put that flag in the ground, things happen.
So if you can make that commitment to yourself. I am going to be alive. I am not going to die at my job. But I am going to live in my job and I am going to find life and joy at my job. And then bring that to work. And find it. And then find it with someone else. And be the seed that spreads throughout your whole organization.
Tami Simon: Well, it is wonderful. What I was going to ask you. And I think you are already articulating it, is if this is a hero’s journey and this idea of working for good, bring that kind of energy to your work, is the journey of the hero, what is the outcome of the hero’s journey?
Jeff Klein: The outcome of the hero’s journey is you receive great gifts–insight, understanding, skill—that you get to bring back and share with others in service to your family and your community and your company. And then you get to keep going in other rounds of the hero’s journey, because there are new edges, new frontiers, that you are called to explore./ So that is the fruit of the hero’s journey. Is that you get these gifts that you get to bring back and then you get to go on other adventures and find new shadows and new hindrances and new allies and new gifts and bring them back too.
Tami Simon: Wonderful. Thank you, Jeff.
Jeff Klein: Thank you.
