Mark Nepo: Becoming the Poem

    —
February 19, 2013

Mark Nepo: Becoming the Poem

Mark Nepo February 19, 2013

Tami Simon speaks with Mark Nepo, a New York Times #1 bestselling author and a cancer survivor who has taught in the fields of poetry and spirituality for over 35 years. Mark has created several audio programs with Sounds True, plus a new interactive video learning course called A Pilgrimage of the Heart: Discovering Your Authentic Voice and Inner Courage, which launches March 19th. Mark will present at Sounds True’s Wake Up Festival this August, including a pre-festival workshop on writing and spiritual growth. In this interview, Mark speaks about how to relate helpfully to our pain, sincerity as a specific type of intelligence, the role of pilgrimage, and the spiritual path of the artist. (64 minutes)

Mark Nepo is a poet and philosopher who has taught in the fields of poetry and spirituality for over 35 years. A New York Times #1 bestselling author, he has published 13 books and recorded eight audio projects. Mark has been interviewed twice by Oprah Winfrey as part of her Soul Series radio show, and was interviewed by Robin Roberts on Good Morning America. As a cancer survivor, Mark devotes his writing and teaching to the journey of inner transformation and the life of relationship. Mark's work is widely accessible and used in spiritual retreats, healing and medical communities, and more. His work has been translated into 20 languages, and he continues to offer readings, lectures, and retreats.

Author photo © Brian Bankston


Listen to Tami Simon's in-depth audio podcast interviews with Mark Nepo:
Holding Nothing Back »
Becoming the Poem »
Writing Is Listening with Your Heart and Taking Notes »

600 Podcasts and Counting…

Subscribe to Insights at the Edge to hear all of Tami’s interviews (transcripts available too!), featuring Eckhart Tolle, Caroline Myss, Tara Brach, Jack Kornfield, Adyashanti, and many more.

Meet Your Host: Tami Simon

Founded Sounds True in 1985 as a multimedia publishing house with a mission to disseminate spiritual wisdom. She hosts a popular weekly podcast called Insights at the Edge, where she has interviewed many of today's leading teachers. Tami lives with her wife, Julie M. Kramer, and their two spoodles, Rasberry and Bula, in Boulder, Colorado.

Photo © Jason Elias

Also By Author

Mark Nepo: Authentic Expression is Heart-Based

“All my work is about devotion to the messy, magnificent human journey”

—Mark Nepo

Every day, we learn. We take in more of the new. And yet, we can only respond to situations based on what we know already. We rely on the old.

Mark Nepo seems to be asking about the space between. What does it mean to grow and change with grace? What does it mean to have faith in that process? And what does this have to do with writing and expression?

We are constantly tasked to face the unknown using tools that may have only worked for us in the past (and that is freaking scary).

I believe that asking questions is elemental to human nature. But, it is impossible to truly know any of the answers.

For Mark, there is no one right way forward. There is no way out of fear. There is only a sensibility that can be adopted: that is, the willingness to listen. 

In other words, there are no objectives. There are no end products. The “answer” is in letting go of resistance to what we know, have, and are.

That way, the invisible can make itself known.

WITNESSING

“How do we talk about the things that matter that you really can’t see?”

—Mark Nepo

The ephemeral connection between ourselves and the world of essence exists within our hearts. With this practice—this practice of inner trust, perhaps even surrender—we can begin to gesture at expressing the unsayable.

What’s clear about Mark Nepo is that he is first and foremost a writer. However, his ideas can be applied to any form of expression.

To bear witness in writing, Mark advises giving full attention to whatever is in front of you, then describing it in as much detail as possible. It’s important not to make it seem magnificent or assign it “a bunch of meaning.”

Don’t evaluate it.

We are the observers and not yet the translators.

There is another part to it. Look inward. Feel what is moving through you at that moment. “Paint” that feeling with words. Don’t judge. Don’t bother with meaning. This disposition is inherently freeing. 

In this state (and I fall in and out of it even as I write this), reality moves up to our eyes like a mirror. We can look at it and hear it, be part of it.

THE INVISIBLE WORLD

“You can’t see light except for what it illuminates. All the forces that hold us and support us are invisible”

—Mark Nepo

We name things all the time. We have to. It keeps chaos at bay.

But, naming things tends to keep us separate from them. That is this and I am this and you are there and I am here.

In his Insights at the Edge episode with Tami, Mark mentions that we are accustomed to listening in this way.

We immediately assign names, places, spaces, reasons, meaning and significance to everything we see and feel. We judge and assume (partly because it is efficient; partly because we are so used to doing it).

This is in stark contrast to the “essence of wholehearted presence, however and whenever that appears.”

IMMERSION

“The truth is, I barely understand half of what comes through me. The other half leads me”

—Mark Nepo

Immersion is a different kind of listening.

Rather than naming, one engages in a mutual conversation with the world. Discovery and creation unite as the byproduct of participation in oneness.

For Mark, immersion is a way to stop resisting our naturalness and be… whatever it is we were meant to be, as humans.

When he talks about “the things that matter,” what he seems to mean is the invisible world, “that which holds us together.” In immersion, we have the chance to interact with the invisible source of our unity.

Like the fiery and untouchable sun from which our individual experiences emanate.

WHOLEHEARTEDNESS

“It’s a gift that we can’t reach what we’re trying to say or what we see, because of all that it gives us”

—Mark Nepo

In his interview, Mark says to Tami about art-making, “What matters more is our wholeheartedness than whether we do it well.”

Tami’s response struck me. “I notice, as you offer that answer, there’s a part of me that really softens.”

Creation can be a meeting place. Rather than prescribing, you meet something somewhere, and then you embrace whatever happens. You accept what is present—and in return, you are accepted just as you are.

Wholeheartedness: letting go of expectation for the sake of the unsayable.

SELF-EXPRESSION

“Just because I write it doesn’t mean that I have the meaning of it all”

—Mark Nepo

As a writing teacher, I often tell my students that if they’re stuck, they may not be empty of ideas. In fact, they may be too full.

Creating space for the heart allows the bubbles to rise up. Like attracts like. We see what we see.

“If you’re not quite there, go back to the heart of whatever the expression is about, and get closer, and get stiller, and put your defenses down, and get closer. … Go back and have a more open heart, and see what comes then.”

Sometimes, it’s unpleasant.

Sometimes, it’s utterly nonsensical.

Poetry, as one possible example of this art, has long emptied itself of pragmatic purpose and precise meaning for the sake of beauty and potentiality.

You may end up with something that you don’t understand for years. You may just take that thing out later and realize what you meant. Authentic expression is not a product. It’s a message from you to you, from the universe to the universe.

And it is always miraculous.

Mark Nepo: Writing Is Listening with Your Heart and Ta...

Mark Nepo is a New York Times bestselling author, poet, and philosopher whose many books include The Book of Awakening, Things That Join the Sea and the Sky, and The One Life We’re Given. Most recently, he has partnered with Sounds True to publish Drinking from the River of Light: The Life of Expression. In this episode of Insights at the Edge, Tami Simon speaks with Mark about about our collective notions around creativity and the societal role of art. Mark details how his own ideas about creative expression have shifted over the decades, as well as why we should try to separate creation from commerce. Mark and Tami talk about the “messy, magnificent journey” of being human and why art must be a “witness to what is.” Finally, they discuss the necessity of holding nothing back during the creative process and why the pursuit of art is also the pursuit of timelessness.(71 minutes)

Being in Love with the World

In Love with the World

There is no end to love. We may tear ourselves away, or fall off the cliff we thought sacred, or return one day to find the home we dreamt of burning. But when the rain slows to a slant and the pavement turns cold, that place where I keep you and you and all of you—that place opens, like a fist no longer strong enough to stay closed. And the ache returns. Thank God. The sweet and sudden ache that lets me know I am alive. The rain keeps misting my face. What majesty of cells assembles around this luminous presence that moves around as me? How is it I’m still here? Each thing touched, each breath, each glint of light, each pain in my gut is cause for praise. I pray to keep falling in love with everyone I meet, with every child’s eye, with every fallen being getting up. Like a worm cut in two, the heart only grows another heart. When the cut in my mind heals, I grow another mind. Birds migrate and caribou circle the cold top of the world. Perhaps we migrate between love and suffering, making our wounded-joyous cries: alone, then together, alone, then together. Oh praise the soul’s migration. I fall. I get up. I run from you. I look for you. I am again in love with the world.

 

Journal Questions to Work With

These journal questions have been gathered over the years from my own exploration of journaling and from my work as a teacher. They are starting points, dive spots if you will. Feel free to change them, combine them, undress them, and to voice questions of your own that these might stir, questions that might feel more relevant to what you’re going through. These questions are invitations to better know yourself and to better relate to the currents of life. Each is a chance to personalize all that we have to face.

 

  1. Describe your commitment to the ones you love.  Under what conditions would you stop loving?
  2. What kind of care is necessary to create love, maintain love, and protect love?
  3. Describe the combination of care, freedom, knowledge, and need that makes up the kind of love you value? How is this different from the love you feel able to give?

 

Looking for more great reads?

 

Excerpted from Things that Join the Sea and the Sky by Mark Nepo.

Mark Nepo is a poet and philosopher who has taught in the fields of poetry and spirituality for over 35 years. A New York Times #1 bestselling author, he has published 13 books and recorded eight audio projects. Mark has been interviewed twice by Oprah Winfrey as part of her Soul Series radio show, and was interviewed by Robin Roberts on Good Morning America. As a cancer survivor, Mark devotes his writing and teaching to the journey of inner transformation and the life of relationship. Mark’s work is widely accessible and used in spiritual retreats, healing and medical communities, and more. His work has been translated into 20 languages, and he continues to offer readings, lectures, and retreats.

You Might Also Enjoy

Communicating with ‘Calmfidence

Patricia Stark is a personal coach and certified body language trainer. With Sounds True, she’s released the book Calmfidence: How to Trust Yourself, Tame Your Inner Critic, and Shine in Any Spotlight. In this episode of Insights at the Edge, Tami Simon talks with Patricia about what it takes to cultivate “calmfidence”—a combination of robust confidence and inner calm that grounds you no matter the circumstances. Patricia details her own journey from a painfully shy childhood to becoming a sought-after speaker. Tami and Patricia discuss tools and tricks for building calmfidence, including on-the-spot exercises such as the Snow Globe or the Sack of Potatoes practices. Finally, they talk about the hidden advantages of nervousness, the necessity of active listening, and why each of us has a personal truth waiting to be shared with the world.  

How Do You Shine Bright? Managing Your Energy Ecosyste...

When you hear the phrase “shining bright,” what does it evoke for you? Does it mean being yourself? Is it radiance, openness, or casting your energy outward toward others? Is it being the center of attention?

For me, shining bright is about sustainable personal energy, understanding your unique spiritual makeup or energetic personality archetype. It’s about managing your energy ecosystem. It’s also about keeping the balance of what’s “coming in” and what’s “going out,” as all healthy systems do.

One of the ways I feel my “brightest” is when I’m in nature, especially in the little jungle of my backyard. As I write this, a rabbit is relentlessly distracting me by flashing its ears in my line of sight, stretching up to grab some leaves, ducking down into the ivy. Observing and immersing myself in nature keeps my energy ecosystem healthy. It helps me see the bigger picture of the earth’s systems and appreciate the extraordinary beauty that exists in our seemingly ordinary spaces. I breathe differently and feel lighter when I’m watching the creatures and plants outside.

Rabbits don’t do it for you? You may need the bright lights of the stage, deep long meaningful conversations, sweaty workouts, or something else. It’s a combination of things that blend to create ideal self-care habits, big and small routines that honor who we naturally are and help us be our most radiant.

It’s hard to shine bright when you’re burned out. Many of us are overwhelmed, facing disasters of all kinds. Even if we’re not experiencing direct trauma, the world feels chaotic. That can make it easier for us to spin out of control a little too and neglect healthy habits. Maybe, like me, you love and are rejuvenated by time in nature, but feel you must travel to far-off places to find the wild and that’s not possible right now. Maybe you’ve struggled to find a practice that suits who you are and fits into your life. Maybe you feel the experiences of those around you so keenly in your body that it’s hard to distinguish your own emotions and needs.

We’re vulnerable to burnout when we get overwhelmed and depleted when we become cynical and feel negative and ineffective about our work. We start to distance ourselves from others and detach from ourselves, our needs, and what it takes to be healthy and happy.

I have two resources to help, one is available now, and one will be available soon.

Even if you only have a few moments, making time to meditate or journey regularly can help avoid burnout. Shamanism for Every Day: 365 Journeys is a daily guide for reconnection. No pressure, not another to-do list item, but a gentle way to engage your inner wisdom and the support of the spirits around you to stay healthy. Shining Bright Without Burning Out: Spiritual Tools for Creating Healthy Energetic Boundaries in an Overconnected World is an audio course that will help you step by step to manage what comes into your energy ecosystem and what goes out. We’ll reframe how you engage the world in order to stay compassionate and present, without losing your spark or burning out, so that you can shine bright and enjoy your time here on this beautiful earth.

Preorder Shining Bright Without Burning Out now! 

Mara Bishop has over 25 years of experience helping people find spiritual health and well-being. Her Personal Evolution Counseling™ method blends shamanism, psychology, intuition, energy healing, and nature-based practices. She lives in Durham, NC with a beloved family of people, animals, and plants.

More information about Mara is at www.WholeSpirit.com

How to Have Kids and a Life

Ericka Sóuter has over 20 years of journalism experience and is a nationally recognized voice in parenting news and parenting advice. A frequent contributor on Good Morning America and other national broadcast outlets, she regularly speaks on the issues, trends, and controversies that are most affecting parents and new families today. With Sounds True, Ericka has written a book called How to Have a Kid and a Life: A Survival Guide

In this episode of Insights at the Edge, Tami Simon speaks with Ericka about what it means to be a parent today. They discuss why more and more parents are opening up about not just the joys but also the challenges of raising children—and how our definition of “good parenting” is changing as a result. Ericka brings realism and humor to this enlightening conversation, helping parents navigate the expectations versus the realities of parenthood as they tend to their own happiness. “Love is innate,” Ericka shares. “Parenting skills are not.”

>
Share via
Copy link
Powered by Social Snap